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IMHO
1 posted on 04/03/2002 9:52:50 AM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
All of what you say may be true as long as states consent to be within the Union. However, if a state decides to leave, then the state has decided it will no longer be bound by the terms of the Constitution, although it may elect to do so. Therefore all of the powers granted to the federal government to enforce these provisions become meaningless. Nothing, of course, prevents the federal government from doing whatever it wants to anyway. I think that the states can drop out of the Union...it may choose to use the language of the Declaration of Independence and state what compels it to leave. One of the rights that the people retain is the right of free association. If the people don't want to associate with the Union,they have the right not to. I personally don't like language that enumerates the rights of government because I think people have rights, not governments.

Governments have responsibilities. If the people of the state detail a government with the responsibility to secede, then I don't think the federal government has the moral authority to prevent it by force...but it can and will use illicit force to hold its power.

In a free society, that which is not forbidden is legal. Contrary to your assertions, which apply to those states which choose to remain in the Union, there is nothing in the Constitution which forbids a state from taking the step to secede.

226 posted on 04/03/2002 4:49:22 PM PST by Jesse
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To: r9etb
Tyrants have been trashing our Constitution and the Rights it enumerates for the last 60+ years, so I find it interesting that they expect their claims of "secession being unconstitutional" to have any validity.

The issue of secession was settled in 1776, when our Founders wrote the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government...."

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

236 posted on 04/03/2002 5:45:24 PM PST by Mulder
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To: r9etb
I see nothing in the cited articles, or your essay, that shows that states are not free to leave the union. Yes, it was part of the compact between states that states wouldn't raise armies, or form confederations with one another, etc., but the southern states saw themselves as having left that compact.

I cannot see how you believe that the cited articles address this option.

285 posted on 04/03/2002 8:33:26 PM PST by Timm
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To: r9etb
It is amazing how people forget the constitution is a contract between States. The States signed into the contract and they can also brake the contract if the contract is not being upheld.
304 posted on 04/03/2002 11:18:15 PM PST by Steve Van Doorn
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To: r9etb
You assume liberism is NOT an insurrection. The Fed has already been captured.

Williams said "states were sovereign; the federal government was a creation, an agent, a servant of the states."

Which was correct. And you need not go back to the Civil War - just check out Alaska's politics in the 90's.

I would support and applaud a State's right to secede. If Alaska gets fed up with Left Coast liberalism and it's duly elected legislature opts out of the Union, that's not an insurrection - it's state-of-the-art, lassiez-faire ("leave me alone" [Fr.]) capitalism.

316 posted on 04/04/2002 2:29:20 AM PST by The Raven
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To: r9etb, Free the USA
No analysis or reading between the lines is necessary. The right to secede is granted to the States, in the 10th Amendment. The rights of the Federal government are few. The rights of the States approach infinity.
322 posted on 04/04/2002 2:49:21 AM PST by The Raven
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To: r9etb
If that were really true, of course, the Civil War would never have been fought. "Virtually every" political leader in Washington would have let the secessionist states go their own ways. But of course they didn't do that. Instead, they prosecuted a long, bloody war to prevent it. So that part of Williams' case simply fails.

Your short paragraph above is loaded with irrelevant conclusions.
355 posted on 04/04/2002 9:35:13 AM PST by aruanan
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To: r9etb
Only cancer is more destructive than a government assuming powers not specifically deligated by those who created it. We are still waiting for the cure. Ruby Ridge and Waco were not it, yet. American fascism is thriving while our Constitution is "living".
461 posted on 04/05/2002 7:38:54 PM PST by SevenDaysInMay
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Self ping for further read
476 posted on 04/06/2002 6:28:14 AM PST by dpa5923
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To: r9etb

Your entire argument is highly flawed because you missed one logical point:

Would the states have joined a union in which the central government would dictate to them the way our federal government does today by forcing rules and regulations, and huge taxes on them?

Thus, the representation of the union was different than the reality of it today.

The states entered into a union in which they expected to have great control over and states rights, but that is no longer the case.

Because the union is not working the way it was represented at the time of its establishment, the States have the natural right to remove themselves from this union, and reenter it if they so desire, with a new agreement between them and the federal government.

I offer supporting evidence from our own Congress:

This read is well worth the time it takes:

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


492 posted on 04/06/2002 12:33:46 PM PST by antidemocommie
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To: r9etb
Where to start. Well, let's start with the Constitution.

You seek to apply the Constitution of the United States to a state that has seceded. In other words, you are applying a law to someone or something that is not in your jurisdiction. That's like saying the laws of California apply to someone living in Georgia.

But let's look at what the Constitution really says about whether the states have a right to secede, shall we?

The 10th Amendment says, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Does the Constitution prohibit the states for seceding? No. As you point out, there are things they may not do while they are states, but there is nothing in the Constitution that says they may not secede.

Therefore, the Constitution clearly implies that states may secede.

Furthermore, as Professor Williams points out in his article, the question was discussed during the ratification process. People were repeatedly assured that the state retained the right to secede from the Union. This was the general understanding until Fort Sumter.

The problem is that you don't seem to understand the Constitution or our Constitutional form of government. The states are not creatures of the federal government. The federal government did not create the states. It was the other way around. The states are sovereign entities. The federal government is a creation of the states and of the people who live in them.

The states and the people who live in them may decide that they no longer want to be part of the United States.

499 posted on 04/06/2002 3:44:20 PM PST by Rule of Law
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To: r9etb
"virtually every political leader of the time and earlier believed that states had a right of secession." If that were really true, of course, the Civil War would never have been fought

Whether the states have a right to secede depends on who you talk to. It sure seems like the states would have that right, according to the Constitution, if it saw that the rest of the states were basically trashing the constitution. What if the required number of the states wanted to Constitutionally throw out some of the amendments?

I had also heard that the North was going to allow the South to secede until the South attacked Sumter because they didn't want a foreign fort on their border. So the North took that as an act of war, and conquered the South... much like Israel did in Palestine numerous times this century. (NOT comparing Palestinians to Southerners, but the mechanics of war were similar, if the South attacked first story is true).

502 posted on 04/06/2002 5:30:18 PM PST by Terriergal
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To: r9etb
The right of the states to succeed, keeps the federal government from straying from its constitutional powers. As we have witnessed since 1865.
519 posted on 04/07/2002 8:06:11 AM PDT by waterstraat
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To: r9etb
Except that you for ignoring the main point: which is the nature of the union. As written it prposed an entirely new form of government, neither a confederation nor a unitary state. If the Constitution is a treaty between sovereign states(confederation), then any state can abrogate that treaty at will. The Constitution claims to be an act of the People of the United States, but ratification was by states: not by a single electorate, and by electors within a state, who were sometimes legislators rather than voters. It establishes a government for the United States, but acknowledges the substantial powers of already existing governments within the 13 states and the rights of the citizens of the several states. The powers of the United States were essentially paper powers, whose reality was yet to be determined and which were NOT yet fully determined by 1861. the growth of national power during the first few years was substantial, but it may be said that, as new states came into the Union, those of the national governments tended to be diminished and those of the states increased. By 1861, the average American knew only one federal official, the postmaster.
576 posted on 04/07/2002 4:51:59 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: r9etb
If Williams economics is as suspect as his historical knowledge and constitutional understanding I would hate to take his course.

These arguments are unrefutable and only the die-hard Defenders of Slaveocracy (D.S.s) even try to refute them. And we all know where their heads are.

608 posted on 04/08/2002 12:39:07 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit
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To: r9etb
Section VI doesn't come close to saying that "the interests of the individual states are inferior to that of the United States", unless one has been huffing airplane glue before reading the document. I'll get to some of your other garbage in a later post. Just wanted to let you know that you're severely uninformed.
612 posted on 04/08/2002 4:00:01 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: r9etb;Tralfaze McWatt; Rule of Law; antidemocommie; Rodney King; PistolPaknMama...
Some of Ya'll/Youse need to broaden your perspectives. Try thinking about it from another point of view.

Based on Amendment X (The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.) could one or more States be ejected from the Union by the other States?

If individual States can elect to secede from the others, why can't the others elect to eject individual States?

Can we Please get rid of California, Massachusetts and some of the others (how about selected parts of them)?

I am not advocating a personal position, but just throwing something into the mix to see what accumulates at the top.

(How many can I reply to at once? Is it limited at all?)

619 posted on 04/08/2002 9:56:03 PM PDT by KrisKrinkle
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To: r9etb
Walter Williams latest here or at http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20020410.shtml.

He says: " ...some readers concluded differently" despite "... abundant evidence that most of the Founders took the right of state secession for granted."

"Spose he's paying attention?

652 posted on 04/09/2002 10:27:48 PM PDT by KrisKrinkle
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To: r9etb
"While serving in Congress, Lincoln was an outspoken supporter of the Marxist/socialist revolutions in Europe going on at the time. In 1861, Honest Abe sought to free the South from itself. Four years, billions of dollars in property loss and debt, and 600,000 lost lives later, Lincoln got his wish and our modern day federal government in Washington is the fruit of his labor. Don't everybody cheer at once." --MATTHEW CHANCEY
669 posted on 04/16/2002 6:34:23 AM PDT by one2many
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To: r9etb
Secession does not necessarily equate to insurrection or an act of war.
697 posted on 04/19/2002 12:40:05 PM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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