Posted on 04/08/2002 4:54:14 PM PDT by Notwithstanding
Quite. The evil and maniacal pro-lifer murders the good and reasonable pro-abortion mayor. It's the kind of dissembling that takes the culture of death back to its roots with Sanger and Mengele.
I don't do one thing to the MT except translate it, and the sense of it is plain. (Odd you make this contentless jape, then quote the verse as speaking of "fruit" which, as far as I know, no manuscript or ancient version supports.) The passage speaks of a premature birth cause by injury. The man who causes the injury is punishable to the extent of the damage he causes, whether he hurts mother or child. Don't most mothers have teeth?
You want to be known as favoring butchering living children, that is yours to carry before God.
But stop lying about the Bible. It is univocal. Human life begins in the womb, was protected by God's law, should be protected by human law.
Dan
Perhaps they have another name for it then?
We just don't care for children being executed without due process; without his or her constitutional right to legal counsel or his or her right to a fair and speedy trial to determine guilt or innocence.
What a straw man, since we are talking about a fetus, not a living soul. (Yes, a fetus is alive, but it is not a living soul, because it has not yet been BORN. See how we disagree -- with scriptural grounds claimed on both sides -- on this most basic issue? Now what would you do about that, if you were to find the country divided 50/50 along those very lines? Wouldn't you demand guns for your side to force the other to comply, believing that you are defending the lives and supposed rights of "unborn children?")
What we have now is a form of dictatorship. A woman can dictate the life or death of her unborn living human and say, “Off with your head”.
And so, since in your opinion "abortion is murder of the innocent," that gives you the moral right, and I would say IMPETUS and OBLIGATION and DUTY to do whatever you can to stop the "murder," and extend CONTROL into every aspect of a woman's life, even to her own womb. At least that is how the "abortion is murder" crowd sees -- and justifies -- it. That moves from a "form of dictatorship" into an actual one.
For almost 200 years, we didn't have legalized abortion in our country and no one was guilty of cramming religion down a woman's throat. Now for the past 30 years, we are guilty as sin for saying abortion is murder. As a matter of fact, GEE…..we did just fine without legalized abortion all those years didn’t we? Now we’re all going to hell in a DIAPER BAG.
Back alley abortions and lost and ruined lives as a result -- that's doing just fine? And why do you suppose many women were having the illegal abortions? Because of mistakes in a judgmental, puritanical society, where she would be labeled the worst things, put out of church and shunned for turning of pregnant, her family would suffer the shame, and the child, if born, would carry the name and stigma of "bastard" for life. And "bastard" wasn't just a cute South Park cartoon cuss word then.
Abortion is more than just a dead baby. It’s a bad attitude. It has given permission for casual sex with dozens and dozens of partners. What follows is rampant sexually transmitted diseases, unwanted children left to die in a bathroom during the prom, broken homes, lives of guilt and regret. Women in so much grief over their abortion 10 years before, they can’t be a good mother to the children they have now and have terrible problems bonding with their spouse. These women endure severe depressions and long term indescribable grief. etc, etc, etc and on and on we can go.
And if you had said "fetus" instead of "baby" in the first sentence of that paragraph, I might agree with every last word of it. Except that many women turn and find grace and forgiveness in Jesus Christ and do not suffer the things you mentioned. I would agree that abortion is a snare that can lead to guilt. Therefore screaming "murderer" serves the snare by piling on the guilt; it serves condemnation, and destroys, rather than helps.
And if you really push the logic behind idea that there should be no sex without consequences (or no sex without "blessing"), then even ordinary, routine birth control is evil too.
And I've got news for you, MOST women who get abortions don't want them, they just THINK they do because they are in a panic and they are in shock. After all is said and done, MOST of them REGRET their CHOICE. Many of them are pressured by a boyfriend or a parent to make the CHOICE they want them to make. This is CHOICE? I say we need laws to protect WOMEN and CHILDREN from this very bad and painful CHOICE. Need I mention the fathers involved who have no say in their child's life or death status?
I thought you just said the boyfriends (fathers) are the ones pressuring them into it.
If we did away with abortion, most women would keep their unborn HUMAN, give birth and get on with a JOYFUL life. Giving birth and being a mother really isn’t as bad as the Feminazi culture would have us believe.
Strong points. But "abortion is murder" is not the way to go about it. It hasn't won the debate yet, and it won't, except when the "abortion is murder" crowd finally gets the federal gun power they need to impose their agenda by force.
I personally would like to see Roe v Wade repealed, the authority returned to the individual states to outlaw (or not outlaw) abortion. I would like to return to a time more "innocent," when girls who "got in trouble" simply went away for a few months. They gave the unwanted babies up for adoption of course. I suspect that even in that "innocent" time many of those would have preferred keeping the babies had it not been for cultural labeling and socio-religious pressures.
But even in those times with those options, dangerous back alley abortions were available and being done. Not everyone came from a family of means capable of sending them "away" to have the baby.
And here's where I see your point, to an extent. Legalized abortions seem to have made abortion a casual act of convenience, rather than one of desperation. "Oops, pregnant. No prob. I'll pop in to see the doc this afternoon, and sleep around more tonight." But I think legalization is not nearly to blame as cultural promotion and societal endorsement of abortion.
Let me put it this way. Girls wouldn't be caught dead wearing high waisted jeans if they thoughht their culture (tv/radio/celebrities/magazines/peers) disapproved. If the culture frowned on abortion and promoted the carrying of babies to full term, giving birth (then putting up for adoption if necessary) the majority of abortion clinics would close overnight. And laws -- and enforcement -- wouldn't even be necessary to accomplish it. (WHAT? HEY! NO LAWS? THAT MEANS WE CAN'T RULE OVER THE OTHERS? WE WON'T HEAR OF THAT! NO!)
Again, screaming "abortion is murder" and holding up pictures of aborted fetuses isn't going to get it done. Except by force.
Liar. And silly too. (Ooooo. Your ears hot? I know self-appointed "scholars" hate to be called "silly"!)
It's the same silly tactic used by Democrats when they claimed the Republicans wanted to "starve children" and "kill the elderly".
Hey, if you want to claim the Bible only exists in perfect form in "the originals" (which don't even exist!), and therefore only the elite Greek and Hebrew "scholars" such as yourself have access to real truth, and the laity must come to scholars such as yourself as final arbiters and final authorities regarding what the scriptures actually say on any given subject, and completely disregard Psalm 12: 6 & 7, and want to feel that anyone who dares disagree with a scholar based on what the Bible that God gave them says is impudent, that is yours to carry before God.
I thought it was perfectly clear the residents of Atown disapproved of abortion. I guess not. Maybe a bigger font and shorter words next time.
You do illustrate the raging fanatical blindness of the "abortion is murder" crowd: You either agree that abortion is "murder" or you are labeled "pro-abortion." No matter how many times you state you are not.
You're absolutely right! There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that requires you to love or accept a single word I "spew!" Just for kicks and grins, though, let's see what the Bible says and see if I might have a point.
Surely you won't mind that, will you? Let's look at what the Bible says, without commenting on it (I won't even bold any type), and you can judge for yourself whether there MAY BE GROUNDS for someone to take and hold to a position that the Bible teaches that LIFE BEGINS when BREATH enters the body (and life ends when breath leaves the body), and new life begins at new birth when the Spirit of God enters into a man!
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. -- Genesis 2:7All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit. -- Job 27: 3-4
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. -- Job 33:4
Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: -- Ezekiel 37:5
And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. -- Ezekiel 37: 8-10
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. -- John 3: 2-7
And that is certainly what I believe, and why I believe it.
You REALLY have to twist the word of God to go from "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." to a position that condones the murder of unborn babies.
What demented church do you attend anyway? Does your pastor also hold these beliefs? May I e-mail him and ask him?
Do not post to me again because I won't answer. I know the devil when he is working, so begone.
Another nice person! The cheerful Charlies are out in force on this thread. Let's see, so far there's been "fool," "Partial birth abortion is hunky dory with RS," "justify murdering kids," "weird," "twisted, sick, self-serving beliefs," "you fool," "favoring butchering living children," "Satan's spawn," "lying about the Bible," "Baal worshipper," and (((shudder))) Jar Jar Binks!
My crime? Daring to suggest that there is a Biblically-based side of the argument that abortion -- though wrong -- is not murder. The argument does not condone abortion, it simply argues that the Bible does not support the charge that it is murder.
So bring it on! I'm just getting warmed up!
No I don't. You ignore what the verse says. Look at it:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. -- Jeremiah 1:15Before Jeremiah was even formed in the belly God says He knew Him. So to press your argument, LIFE BEGINS AT SOME POINT EVEN BEFORE CONCEPTION.
But of course it does not. God foreknowing someone is no proof of life beginning at that point. For example,
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love -- Ephesians 1: 3-4
It's clear that God foreknew people even that far back, before the foundation of the world, before one single person had been conceived in a womb. You want to argue that this proves their lives actually began back then? Think "science" will back you up on that?
"Hope your back feels better. :)"
I've been so grumpy I forgot to say "thanks."
Thanks. =)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.