Jesus Died for All, Not Just For a Select Few

. He would still be just if He passed over all of us.

I disagree at this point. It would make him apathetic, not just, to pass over all of us. Apathy is unjust....a mere few steps away from negligence if you wish to consider the law.

However, I also acknowledge that you're simply trying to emphasize our unworthiness....which I agree with.

The list of church fathers above seems to really lock in the proper interpretation of the scripture. On all sides, the case for a biblical unlimited atonement is resoundingly conclusive.

1. The guy is a 4 point calvinist. REad the article and see his deference toward Calvin. He is not the only calvinist around who rejects "limited atonement."

Give it up soldier I am a Wesleyan Calvinist....and all the people said so what... Good night!

You may have good intentions (even though I adamantly think you are wrong regarding Calvinism being bad theology), but the tone of your posts is very divisive. It is possible to argue a point without exagerating it to the point of distortion

I have yet to see EVEN ONE c'vist on this page attempt to argue Wesley-Arminianism WITHOUT distorting it. I can decide that's because they don't believe it and that that makes it somehow psychologically impossible for them to fairly represent it. I can argue that they don't understand it. I can argue that they intentionally distort it. It is really a combination of all 3.

I am a Wesleyan Calvinist

Help me on this one...are you saying that your status as a "wesleyan calvinist" makes it entirely likely that there is such a thing as a 4 pt c'vist? I think that's what you're saying.

LOL.......... Good night xzins

1. T - Everyone's flippin' crazy and corrupt. 2. U - God's picks some for heaven and some for hell. 3. L - Then he died ONLY for the ones he picked. 4. I - Then he forced them on the busride to heaven. 5. P - And he ain't lettin' any of 'em off 'til they get there. Xzins, this part is not constructive but inflamatory. In order to improve the level of discourse (cause you know some Calvinist is gonna see this and say you're flippin' crazy and corrupt for writing it), try to avoid such language in the future. It is divisive, and it is a distortion, and it doesn't become you or add anything to your argument.

drj, you are pinged for a "read only" with no comment requested/expected.

What I wrote is a caricature of your position....it combines both the substance and the implications in a concrete, easily absorbed manner. This is an argumentation style that is frequently used throughout FR to INCLUDE the religious threads. Sarcasm is a major method of caricature, as well. The advantage of it is that it communicates readily....PRIMARILY with those who ALREADY are on your own side.

There is NO WAY to convince an opponent of the validity of your position in an argument (Dale Carnegie.) That happens at a private level.

Therefore, I am hoping to affect your subconscious with propaganda, Wesley-Arminianism's supporters with condensed, agreed upon descritives, and lurkers/undecideds with encapsulated slogans that come fairly close to describing the reality of the ideas.

"But when I'm angry, I'm just shoutin' out taunts"...LOL.

I concur with ditto on this one completely.

Good nite and a High Five to ya!

try to avoid such language in the future. It is divisive, and it is a distortion, and it doesn't become you or add anything to your argument.

amusing for its irony - Hey x & Armommy - you be sure and get a snootful of that "spiritual crack cocaine" today - me, Ive got a shovelful comin my way - snniiffffff.

It presumes something God didn't tell us, that is the number of people who are saved.

1. There are a LOT of things that "GOD didn't tell us".

2. We mere mortals 'presume' about ALL kinds of things: the biggest being that the way WE think, as individuals, and then, as a group of similar thinking folks, that OUR veiwpoint is RIGHT.

As for GOD not telling us, what about that 'sand on the shore thing'?
Genesis 22:17
I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore.

How about 'Many are called but few are chosen'?

And, 'Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.' (Matthew 7:13-14)

Ephesians 3:20-21
20. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,
21. to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

So, let each of us go and worship GOD today and thank Him for being clay. Praise Him for being able to save us through HIS power, and not how we perceive that Power.

I am fully convinced that Calvinists, Arminians, ETC will get that answer we so want to prove to the OTHER guy, when we see Him face to face!

For it is faith from beginning to end: faith that He WILL do what He has promised.

Let us pray for the safety of our present men and women in harms way, while giving thanks to (and for) our veterns of the past, that relied on their faith, to give us the nation we have today.

Let us, as conservatives (of all stripes) do OUR part to keep it......

...one nation, under GOD, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

Amen

Amen Elsie !

1. There are a LOT of things that "GOD didn't tell us". 2. We mere mortals 'presume' about ALL kinds of things: the biggest being that the way WE think, as individuals, and then, as a group of similar thinking folks, that OUR veiwpoint is RIGHT.
Yes, we do presume about a lot. However, biblically speaking, where the text is silent we need not be adamant about our presumptions.

As for GOD not telling us, what about that 'sand on the shore thing'?
Genesis 22:17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore.

How about 'Many are called but few are chosen'?

In both cases, CONTEXT. The first verse is God speaking of the descendants of Abraham. There are both physical and spiritual descendants. If this is spiritual descendants (which I think it ULTIMATELY is, though physical Israel was also blessed through Abraham), then this proves my point that the title of this thread is presumptious and not an accurate reflection of what Calvinists believe. Revelation talks about people from EVERY tribe and nation. God chose a whole bunch of folks, not a "select few."

The second one is at the tail end of two parables. The first one appears to speak of rewards for those who labor for God. The second one is a parable of Israel- those who were invited to the feast but would not come. So, the One who threw the feast went out and chose people for the feast. This verse may indicate that comparatively few are chosen in the scope of all who have the message before them. Note, these folks weren't begging to get into the feast. They were chosen. They wouldn't have come on their own. They were drawn to it.

And, 'Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.' (Matthew 7:13-14)
Good verse for depravity. The question is how do the few find it? Not because of anything with them, but they are drawn and led by God's Spirit.

My whole point is that the Bible does not say how many God chose. For all I know God could have chosen this entire generation and we are His vehicles to draw them in. Few Calvinists will say only a "select few" are chosen. We aren't to know the number; we are just to go out and indiscrimately share the gospel with everyone knowing that at least some will come.

Re Posts 25&26 - do you two know how scary that looks...?

Yea I thought the same thing when I saw it..but could just be that we both liked "Good night John Boy"...

Yes, the Walton's are another fine Virginia tradition, even if the mountains they filmed in were California...

My whole point is that the Bible does not say how many God chose.

It is diversionary to say "perhaps everyone was chosen." If you believe everyone was chosen, then you would be a universalist and you would be forced to affirm that Jesus died for all. You are not a universalist....I'm fairly certain of that. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

Good verse for depravity. The question is how do the few find it? Not because of anything with them, but they are drawn and led by God's Spirit.

In this verse you affirm that few are chosen. So...which is it? Is it "everyone" or is it "few?"

The title of the article stands. Unlimited Atonement means that Jesus died for all. Limited Atonement, the belief of many (but not all, as attested by this article) calvinists, SAYS that only THE FEW were preselected.