Posted on 05/01/2006 8:29:14 AM PDT by SirLinksalot
why would anyone wish to be rid of this indoctrination? overall, it's track record tends to produce survival-asset behavior in social creatures, irrespective of the social paradigm in which the individual is steeped.
Okay, King Prout, I'll stipulate for the sake of argument just as you say: No god could hold "any sway over humans" without "carrot and stick" -- whatever that means.
Still it seems to me humans "just naturally" have a great affinity for truth. And no human is ever compelled (by God at least) to accept any truth that he cannot validate for himself. Don't forget, God made man to be "free" in mind and action.
Yet I insist on a qualification to your statement: Humans who are interested in truth would be interested in God. The others can go "their own way," and take their own chances.
There is no "carrot and stick" here; there is only human reason and action, acting reasonably and in good faith.
If you have a different way of looking at this problem, I'd be most glad to hear you provide the details of how that would work -- without the foundation in truth which is God, I mean.
Thanks for writing!
You still don't know what a theory is do you? No, the current theories surrounding Gravity and DNA (among others) are not testable in the classic sense. And there is a difference between a "fact" and a "theory." You need to learn the difference before we can continue this discussion.
Common descent is neither testable nor verifiable.
That is not true. DNA samples found to match in different scenarios tell us of commonalities hitherto suspected but now confirmed. But to rerun Evolution from bacteria to Homo Sapiens is unnecessary (we can't "test" the Red Shift either since we can't directly experience millions and billions of miles) and of course impractical.
No one to date has tested the modern Gravity and shape of the Universe theories. We can't stand outside the Universe so we have to use inference. We fire things out there that provide inference points, but there are no a priori tests.
You need to learn about science before you can discuss it. I can direct you to some great sites if you don't have resources available.
Partnerships And Reform In Mathematics Education?
Pierre Renewable Integrated Meat And Energy?
Presbyterian Refugee And Immigration Ministry Efforts?
Pride And Responsibility In My Environment?
Pride Radiates In Music Education?
Process Reengineering For Increased Manufacturing Efficiency?
What is your answer?
I told you precisely what "carrot and stick" means: Heaven and hell, redemption and damnation, play by God's rules or he shoves the bat... you get the point.
Free will... irrelevant - the consequences of free choices are still imposed, a priori, by God. Remove the consequences, or completely randomize or eliminate the causal link, and "free will" becomes quite a bit freer, no?
I really do not well tolerate attempting discussion with someone who seems hell-bent on missing the obvious.
So, you feel this indoctrination to be important but this is the only reason you actually feel shame?
it was a Kansas Prime post number, and I took it.
my answer to you followed immediately.
yes: indoctrination is the only reason I feel shame.
moreover: lack of or failure of indoctrination is the only reason others do not feel shame.
Which amounts to: How does one rid oneself of this "shame?"
The answer would seem to be: So get out of the doctrine, and start walking around on one's own two legs, and actually start LOOKING at the world around one....
Here's an analogy: If I wanted to know "what are the conditions that exist on Sicily?", the only real way to find out would be to go to Sicily and take a look for myself. If instead, I decided to take the easy way out and consult with my like-minded friends -- who are just as indoctrinated and opinionated as I am, engaging in sterotypes and rumors -- I probably wouldn't learn too much of actual value about the real conditions on the ground in Sicily. But I might learn something about my friends, and maybe even myself, if I'm an honest person....
You have to do your own looking, your own seeing, if you are interested in the quest for truth. All the rest is so much doxa, "opinion," which comes to nothing when one is asked to account for the conduct of one's own life, including the conduct of one's own life of reason.
Which seems to me to be Everyman's ultimate fate.
Thanks so much for writing, Heartlander!
What fight are you speaking of. I have no quarrel with anyone. You mistake me for yourself. You wanted to know the origin of the flat earth belivers. Well much of it was from creationists that believe themselves clones.
What fight are you speaking of. I have no quarrel with anyone. You mistake me for yourself. You wanted to know the origin of the flat earth believers. Well much of it was from creationists that believe in a strict interpretation of the bible and think themselves clones.
Well jeepers, King Prout -- what would you say if I said the same exact thing about you?
Obviously, you and I do not have a "shared language," such that we can make ourselves intelligible to each other. So, what do we do next?
As to which of us is "missing the obvious," I'm glad to leave that to others to decide. Surely each of us has a "bias" in favor of our own case. So another judge, outside our dispute, is needed, in the interest of justice.
And meanwhile, I thank you for taking the time and energy to share your thoughts with me.
Marvelous discourse between you and Chiapet..
Mathematics indeed could be the footprints of God..
or the scent... or the playthings.. made me think too/also..
I like that..
As a molders can cast bronze or plastic being humans..
Boggles the mind on how God might cast universal energy/matter at will.. Interesting that Quantum Mechanics can't even really figure out what energy even is, completely..
God creating Galaxies, planets, lifeforms, even spirits.. maybe even time is thingly, is conceivable.. The study of crystalline structures imply art at a mechanical base.. Crystals have an identity, who gave them that identity?.. Logarithms, Pi, so many other mathematical axioms seem to mirror crystals as mechanical base art forms with an identity.. To think they are random mutations masking as art is a stretch..
I disagree. Humans have an innate curiosity, yes. Humans have a highly developed ability to see patterns and to think about them, whether the patterns they see actually exist or not, and whether the rational patterns they derive from perception hold water or not. Humans are also very prone to taking refuge in the comfort of habit, and calling that comfort "truth" - whether that comfort is true, or not.
Shame ultimately comes from where?
I am not a creationist but the flat earth myth was generated by people with an agenda. Your argument was refuted and you entered into the irrational with The Flat-Earth Bible.
What argument was refuted. I didn't see any argument concerning a flat earth. I only said that I was amused by the thoughts of a flat earth. If you think you have refuted something I said State it and how you refuted it.
I suppose that the issue you have identified here is the heart of what I was trying to say. I believe that matter, and thus everything, acts according to law. I think that law is the nature of God. I also think, no, I know, that physical, universal law (i.e., according to my suppositions, God) dictates the interactions of matter, making none of it truly random. I also don't think that anyone, scientists in particular, disagree with this notion; that is, that nothing is truly random. Where I am departing, and perhaps where you are departing also, from science, is to identify the organizing principle.
More specifically, "random" is in the eye of the beholder. The more discerning the eye, the less random the action.
Yep. We’ve just been talking back and forth about nothing and apparently we never had anything to say or share with one another.
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