Posted on 01/17/2009 7:57:23 PM PST by Ravnagora
Wrong address, Hip-Hop (light). Wasn’t me who dreamed up the 30k story. Meanwhile the CROckpots were claiming the same number for their fearsome foes. — In the link below you can see clips from my 25 March 92 walk about in Dubrovnik. They got the name wrong (Peter Maas WP). Note the miraculous reconstruction of the utterly levelled Old City in 3 months!!!. Did you buy a tile?
Note also the account of Scot journalist Phil Davidson (q.v.) complaining to the hotel desk clerk about the heavy CRO machine firing from his defenseless Dubrovnik hotel to provoke return fire from Yugo Army. Like Hamas the CRO tactic is to use human shields. UNESCO reported that Croat forces kept 200 women and children from leaving Dubrovnik on a UNICEF vessel, to keep as human shields and for propaganda purposes (Dan Stets. Knight-Ridder papers USA.
5 December 1991). Gun positions by churches also a prefferred location.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tuoym5z1Qw&feature=related
Ave Diocletiane, te correcturus saluto.
1. The literature on forced conversion to Catholicism of Orthodox people is copious. Austria (Holy Roman Empire, Austrian Empire); Union of Brest-Litovsk for the Urainians, Maria Theresa for Slavonia. Not to speak of forced conversion of Protestants in the Counter-Reformation. Do your homework (Google or a library). A Sokac named JOVANCIC has an umnistakable base form JOVAN, Earlier Serbian and Croatian have IVAN, but JOVAN is (guess what).
2. VLAHO. Your folk etymology is charmingly innocent. There is no “Saint Vlach” in any church calendar, but only BLASIUS (Latin), Biagio (Italian) Blaz(h)(Croatian. Look up Blaise in any reference work when you reach the age of reason. Cf. Russian Vivliya, varvari: Latin Biblia, barbari... Or if you’re that insdolent:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Saint-Blaise
Church of St. Blasius in Dubrovnik.
Blaise is the patron saint of the city of Dubrovnik (where he is known as Sveti Vlaho) and formerly the protector of the independent Republic of Ragusa. At Dubrovnik his feast is celebrated yearly on 3 February, when relics of the saint, his head, a bit of bone from his throat, his right hand and his left, are paraded in reliquaries. The festivities begin the previous day, Candlemas, when white doves are released. Chroniclers of Dubrovnik such as Rastic and Ranjina attribute his veneration there to a vision in 971 to warn the inhabitants of an impending attack by the Venetians, whose galleys had dropped anchor in Gruz and near Lokrum, ostensibly to resupply their water but furtively to spy out the city’s defenses. St. Blaise (Blasius) revealed their pernicious plan to Stojko, a canon of St. Stephen’s Cathedral. The Senate summoned Stojko, who told them in detail how St. Blaise had appeared before him as an old man with a long beard and a bishop’s mitre and staff. In this form the effigy of Blaise remained on Dubrovnik’s state seal and coinage until the Napoleonic era.
General Gotovina’s defense is that everything he did to expel Krajina Serbs was done under US auspices, not to speak of air cover, electronic jamming and training by MPRI mercenaries. Cf. Blackwater. Read Jeremy Scahill.
Bilic; Bijelic Belic; are dialect variants; etymology ‘whitey, blond’ or Sniješko Bijelic ‘snowman’. “Entirely Croatian” are only the dialects in which the neuter imterrogative pronoun is KAJ ‘what?” (e.g. in Zagreb, as well as in Slovenia) and CHA, on the islands). In Serbian that pronoun is SHTO (što). Except to chauvinist Croatianists it is unquestionable that literary Croatian is at base the west Serbian IJE variant of the SHTO dialect. Croatian Catholic Archbishop Strossmayer, the great Croatian linguist Ljudevit Gaj, and the Austrian Empire needed that to facilitate missionization of the people whose native language it was — the Orthodox Serbs. See the Vienna Language Agreement /Becki Književni Dogovor 1850).-Just consider the literary Croatian words: ISUS “Jesus”. Catholic Slavs (Poles, Czechs, Slovenes) use the medieval Latin form JESUS (Jesus, Jezus, Ježiš). One word for ‘wedding’ in (literary) Croatian is Vijenchanje’ - derived from Vijenac ‘wreath’ In the Orthodox wedding rite the priest places a wreath (crown) on the head of bride and groom. Not so in the Catholic ceremony.
Diocletian, get out of your palace once in a while and get thee to a library, or Google. You can learn something new every day.
Is the Emperor hallucinating or merely fabricating that the “Maher fellow” mentioned 30k of anything? Date, site? Neutral readers please note: it’s standard rhetoric of Ustashas and Islamists to yowl ad hominem “clown, liar, dupe”. Cuts me to the quick. (I lie.) Dio’s hilarious etymology of “Saint Vlach” show his utter ignorance of Dubrovnik, Catholic or Orthodox. Seems he or his parents and teachers were schooled in godless, atheistic communist Yugoslavia.
What color toga is Diocletian wearing today?
Diocletian recites and recites. He recites the Ustasha schoolboy primer about “Vlachs”, not Serbs, being the settlers in Austria’s Military Frontier /Militaergrenze/ Vojna Krajina. How these Latin-Speakers became Serbianized Dio does not explain. (He recites.) Although Krajina Serbian and Croatian dialects have loads of Venetian words, I’d be interested to see the internal evidence from there that reflects Vlach language. After Dio finishes reciting, let’s wait for him to adduce the scholarly evidence. — Latin-speaking populations bear the same name, from Wales to Wallachia (Rumania) — the Romanized. In Greece the Vlakhi are ‘hillbillies , shepherds”. VLACH ~VLAH is a Slavic word, borrowing of a Germanic word, itself the borrowing of the name of a Romanized Celtic tribe (VOLCAE, singular VOLCA) then bordering the Germani to the south. The name was laid on other Romanized peoples in the course of Germanic migrations. In Britain the term covered both Romanized and un-Romanized Britons, the Welsh. —In Ireland Walsh and Welch are descendants of the Anglicized Normans who invaded Ireland from Wales. In Scotland there’s Wallace. Anglo-Saxon wealh meant ‘foreigner, slave, Briton (Welshman)’. In Austria and Switzerland it means ‘Italian’. In Serbia it includes Rumanians. Hungarians took it over from the Serbs: Olasz-orszag is ‘Vlach-land’ = Italy; Czech Vlachy, Polish Wlochy mean ‘Italy’. Serbian placenames near Sarajevo reflect Serbianized Roman populations (Vlasotince, Vlasenica, Romanija). —
Is my little scribble mere Serbian or Serbophile propaganda? Read the scoop on the following Austrian site.
Pagliaccio ride / Bajaco se smije/ The clown is laughing. Mommy, look at the Emperor new clothes...
“history shows” —
So show us the history.
The Danube is not the Volga, Dio. I’m keen to see your bibliography on Serb claims of an empire extending to the Volga. Serbs joke about Austria-Hungary’s WMD of “Greater Serbia” as “Srbija do Tokija” Serbia all the way to Tokyo!” —
See Encyclopedia Americana, Edition 1993, Vol 24, page 572: “[During Tsar Stefan Dushan’s reign] the Serbian empire stretched from the Danube to the Gulf of Corinth and from the Aegean to the Adriatic. The economic and cultural progress of Serbia at this period was above the average European level. Many monasteries of Serbian-Byzantine architectural style - including Studenica, Decani and Grachanica - founded by several kings, bear witnesss to this highly developed Serbian culture. Dusan’s code of laws (Zakonik), formulated in 1349-1354, shows the advanced social structure of the Serbian state.”-—
The Serbian Empire 1346 was bordered by Byzantium, Bulgaria, Hungary and the Adriatic. That’s where Dubrovnik is. Croatia was a few counties around Zagreb a.k.a. Agram and belonged to Hungary. After Greater Croatia’s phoney “Vaterland War” of of the 1990s — drafted and executed by Bill Clinton’s MPRI, with Austrian, Slovenian, German, Vatican, and Saudi collusion — Art restorers in Dubrovnik found Byzantine painting beneath the later Catholic, not Croatian, but Italian murals.
See excellent (and cheap) historical atlases by Colin MacEvedy...
In ancient Greek HOPLITES [3 syllables: hop-plee-tace] meant’ heavily armed warrior’, root word HOPLA ‘arms’. Does Freeper HOPLITE mean this as a translation of Serbo-Croat USTASHA (singular)/USTASHE (plural)?
— I don’t know, but for Freepers who don’t know the language and history here’s the etymology:
-stati means ‘to stand, rise;
-stanem means ‘I stand, rise’;
-ustati means ‘rise up; ustanem ‘I rise up’;
-USTANAK means ‘Rising’;
-USTASA meant ‘rebel’ (oo-stah-shah; plural oo-stah-shay).
Even before the “First Rising” of 1804, Serbs, Christians, had risen several times against the Muslim Turks, who held non-Muslims in slavery. The German scholar Ranke termed the Serb Rising of 1804 a revolution. In an Ustanak the Serb soldiers were Ustashe. Around 1929 the Fuehrer-in-waiting of “Independent” Croatia, Ante Pavelic, wrote of “Hrvatske Ustashe — Croatian Rebels”. Only since the 1930s-1940s is this formulation pleonastic (redundant, tautologous), and today a Serbian Ustasha would be a contradiction. After Croatia’s warm welcoming of Germans to Yugoslavia in 1941, an Ustasha was by default a Croatian fascist soldier, wearing the SS helmet and uniform. — After WW II Ustasha became a term for contemporary Croat chauvinists. After the battle of Vukovar 1991 war criminal Branimir Glavas greeted as proud “Ustashe” his CRO insurrectionist fighters — not soldiers of a sovereign state — who had been captured by the army of the recognized, sovereign Yugoslav state. These wanna-be SS troopers were released on orders of the dimwit US puppet Milan Panic. Another 200 of them ditched their uniforms and tried to pass themselves off as patient in the hospital. They had murdered, often in ritualistic fashion, Serbs, including children. Serb irregulars made these heroes run the gauntlet and shot them. Yugoslav Army officers were arrested by the quisling Serbian government and packed off to the ICTY, the Hague’s delightfully named CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL.
See YouTube http://www.yidio.com/branimir-glavas-—hdz-ustasa/id/2976230262
“Croatia doesn’t invade other countries.” No need. Just be lapdog to a neighboring power and wait for a doggie biscuit. (Roll over, fetch, shake hands, sing “Danke Deutschland”, play “independent”...) —In WW II Hitler gave Bosnia and Herzegovina to “Independent” Croatia. Long ago Hungary gave her Slavonia (not to be confused with Slovenia). Tito gave Croatia Dubrovnik (for centuries an independent city state like San Marino, Lichtenstein), plus Dalmatia and Istria. A recent “Public” TV travelogue shows a jovial guide, fresh from “capitalist” Dubrovnik. The camera follows him up to the beautiful gate of a nigh baronial estate. He sounds the big knocker. From inside comes a cheery feminine voice, calling “who is it?” — in Italian —”chi e’?”/
The gate knocker and the Italian voice were in Istria. After WW II this part of Italy was invaded and annexed by Communist Yugoslavia, headed by Croat/Slovene hybrid Josip Broz (Tito), — the best friend Greater Croatia ever had. — “Croats never invade...”
Correction: For DAVIDSON read DAVISON.
More on VLACHs
“Serbs are really Vlachs.” – “Diocletian”, who is an intelligent person, has been educated by ignoramuses. I hope he hasn’t paid too dear a price for the stupidity of his teachers.
Austria’s law of the Wallachians STATUTA VALACHORUM of 1630 is purely a geographic term, referring loosely to a territory called Wallachia. Jews from there often bear the surname WALLACH, e.g. actors Eli Wallach and Mike WALLACE, ne’ WALLACH.
Just so, SLAVONIA in medieval Europe meant the SLAV LAND stretching from Villach in Austria to Belgrade, the Slovenes to the Serbs in today’s terms.
Nation states are creatures of the 19th century. Anybody posting on history ought to know that. If they don’t, they should step down from their soap box.
Ethnic names, national tags are labile.
“Indians” – I needn’t go into Columbus and all that. When thousands of US historians and history buffs of non-English descent say “we” in regard to the War of Independence, they would be laughed off the stage if a time machine could transport them back to 1776. Virginians and Londoners in the 1700s called Englishmen in the Virginia colony “Americans”. They called the English in Ireland “Irish”. The Scotch-Irish in the Appalachians were called “Irish’ in the early 19th century, then “Scotch-Irish, Hillbillies” and in PC “Appalachians”; in today’s reigning stupidity they’re re-baptized “Scots-Irish”; to which I prefer “Scots-Iris”. What we call the “Irish” were called “the Celtic Irish” in books of 1900. In the 6 Counties Protestants call themselves “British”, though to the rest of the world they are Irish. “Palestinians” in 1930 were Jews. All subjects of Istanbul were called “Turks”, as Muslims still are in Balkan villages — by Christian and Muslim alike — regardless of language or nation. In the first Byzantine records of “Turks” (Tourkoi) the tribes are actually Hungarians, “Hungarian” is from Turkish “Onu-gor / ten arrows (tribes)”. Slovaks called themselves “Hungarians” before Magyar nationalism erupted. “Illyrian” in Napoleonic times meant “Serbo-Croatian”. Now Sqipetari (Albanians) style themselves “Illyrian” and name their sons “Ilir”. The Caucasian place ALBANIA in the Caucasus that we find in Ptolemy’s atlas has nothing to do with the Adriatic coast now so-called. “Albanians” in Greek and Venetian records can be Greeks, Albanians, or Serbs.
Now –-
Vlachs and “Vlachs”
From the Serbophobic Noel Malcolm:
http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm
www.camo.ch/povijestbih07.htm
“...there is little sense today in saying that the Bosnian Serbs are “really” Vlachs. Over the centuries many ordinary members of the Serbian Orthodox Church would have crossed the Drina into Bosnia or moved north from Hercegovina; a Serb merchant class also became important in Bosnian towns in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Not all the people who were sent to populate northern Bosnia in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries were Vlach, and since then there have been so many influxes and exoduses in Bosnian history that we cannot possibly calculate precise percentages for the “Vlach” ancestry of the Bosnian Serbs. Nor did the Vlachs contribute only to the Serb population; some (mainly in Croatia) became Catholics, and quite a few were Islamicized in Bosnia.”
From
Serbia and the Bulgarian Revival (1762-1872). James F. Clarke. American Slavic and East European Review, Vol. 4, No. 3/4. (Dec., 1945), pp. 141-162.
Stable URL:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1049-7544%28194512%294%3A3%2F4%3C141%3ASATBR%28%3E2.0.CO%3B2-S
“Serbs and “Serbs”, Rumanians and Bulgarians.
“At the end of the eighteenth and beginning of the nineteenth century Bulgarians in Rumania were officially known as ‘Sarbi.’”
Secondly, Tsar Dushan himself forbade Serbs from marrying Vlachs during the Medieval era.
Yes, nations did arise in their present form during the 19th century. The Serbs themselves Serbianized the Vlachs by law in the Kingdom of Serbia by legally obligating them to change their names into Serbian ones and culturally in non-Serb lands through the Serbian Orthodox Church.
The most well known Serbianized Vlach of the 20th century was Serbian Royalist Premier Dragisa Cvetkovic aka Cincar (Vlach).
Some Catholic Vlachs were Croatianized (especially in my region).
Take a look at this map to see the names of the Vlach tribes that later would become Serbians and Croatians:
I will continue more on this theme later.
Dubrovnik was Croatian prior to Tito (see Banovina Hrvatska, for instance).
Dalmatia was the original home of the Croatians in the Balkans...all the royal capitals were in Dalmatia as were all the Croatian kings Dalmatians.
Your history is poor.
Tito stole Srijem from Croatia and gave it to Serbia. Tito also stole 1/3rd of Bosnia-Hercegovina from Croatia to create that republic.
I guess you missed the Croatian Ustasha of the 19th century in Bosnia-Hercegovina. For instance, the final successful rebellion was started in the Croatian village of Gabela near Capljina in 1875 by Croatian Ustasha and soon spread to neighbouring Serbian villages and towns like Nevesinje.
Vlachs have been known for centuries for easily assimilating into their host cultures.
Dio,
You haven’t a clue about linguistics. You couldn’t for the life of you explain what “codified language” means or what “codification” is. (Not Bakala.)... Again you are reciting U-catechism.
—
GOOGLE these terms. “standard language”, “local dialect”. Where on the map do you locate “Vlach language”?
Please explain for us the term and the mechanisms of linguistic “assimilation”. “Assimilation” in linguistics (areal or general) does not mean “absorption”.
Oh yes, don’t forget to give your select bibliography on Vlach history and language when you have time.
Don’t forget to say a prayer to (Serbian) Sveti VLAHO
(= Croatian BLAZ^). His feast day is Feb 3 (Gregorian calendar).
Srdacan pozdrav, Pagliaccio/Bajaco...
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