Posted on 02/26/2015 7:28:34 PM PST by marktwain
I was either in, or worked for, the U.S. Army for over 30 years. During that time I had some experience with what guards were issued for ammunition. My brother brought my attention to a video done about F-15s in Bitburg, Germany, in 1981, at the height of the cold war, only a few year before NATO won. It is titled "The Wing". In the video you can see the Tech Sergeant being issued magazines. He is issued four magazines, all have rounds in them. He makes sure his chamber is clear, and inserts one magazine. In the screen-shot (about 7:26 on the video) you can see the other three magazines in his left hand. They are clearly 30 round magazines for the M16 or variants.
If they were loaded with 28-29 rounds each, I would be pleasantly surprised. I was surprised to see that he received four magazines with rounds in them. It would not make sense to issue him four magazines with five rounds each, when he could be issued one magazine with 20 rounds.
The reason that my curiosity is aroused is that my experience has been far different. As this was a commercially produced video made in cooperation with the military, the number of magazines may have been exaggerated for dramatic effect, disinformation purposes, or operational security.
My first experience with ammunition issued to guards was in California, six years earlier than the video. I had been assigned extra duty as a military game warden on the Hunter Liggett Military Reservation. I was not issued a weapon, but carried my own, an Argentine Ballister Molina .45 that accepted Colt magazines. It was a decent pistol, and did not have the grip safety of the Colt 1911. My partner carried a model 19 Smith & Wesson .357. We both carried them fully loaded with extra ammunition.
We had been briefed about a potential threat. A tip had been received that elements of the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA) were considering a raid on an Ammunition Supply Point (ASP) somewhere in California. We received a report of shots being fired behind the ASP, and took our Jeep to investigate.
We did not find anything. The way back around the ASP was mountainous and long, so we decided to short cut back toward the headquarters area through the ASP. The guard stopped us with a hand signal. We stopped. He pawed at his shirt pocket. We moved forward. He stopped us, and moved back the distance that we had moved forward. He pawed at his pocket; we moved forward. Everything was repeated. Finally, we got out of the Jeep, he made it be known that he needed to see ID. We tossed it to him. He wanted to maintain distance. After verification, he let us pass through the ASP.
I was curious about the pocket pawing, and asked about it. It turned out that the guards were issued one .45 magazine with five rounds in it, and it was to be kept buttoned in the shirt pocket. Very Barney Fife. Everyone that I talked to thought it was a stupid policy.
The next experience was in Panama, at the Rodman ASP, 1985-89. I do not think the guards there were Marines; they might have been Army, Air Force, or Navy. For some reason, Air Force comes to mind. They were allowed one magazine for their M16s. Trouble with Noriega was heating up prior to the U.S. Invasion (Operation Just Cause), after a drunken Noriega had declared war in a Panamanian Television program. It was not clear that he intended to declare war; but he clearly said that Panama was in a state of war with the United States.
At Rodman, the guard's issued magazine and five rounds were to be kept in a magazine pouch. If a guard did not have all five rounds at the end of his shift, the entire company was turned out to hunt for the missing round. Guards were confronted by armed poachers several times. One SOF member (almost certainly a SEAL) was killed by a poacher while training on a night patrol at Ft. Sherman, while I was there, but the policy did not change until the Marines took over security in the face of growing Noriega regime hostility.
There have been other instances in which U.S. military security personnel were not allowed to have loaded weapons, or allowed only limited ammunition in the face of a deadly threat. The bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon in 1983 was one, others have been mentioned in the news.
I would like to know this: What experience did you have with ammunition issued to U.S. military forces on guard duty; and were you issued more than five rounds of ammunition?
©2015 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.
Link to Gun Watch
The following year while on a scenic trip to the isle of Vieques, I was asked to guard a convoy of supplies (ammunition, food, etc..) from Roosevelt Roads to the ferry which would carry us over to the smaller island. I was ordered by the OIC of the guard detachment to maintain our weapons empty. "Aye aye sir!" As soon as he was out of sight, I ordered my Marines to lock and load, safetys on, fingers off the trigger. Namby pamby mudder fudder.
We always have to relearn those lessons. I set up a perimeter defense for a division in Saudi Arabia just for this sort of thing.
The officer in charge of the guard had also requested LAWs for the entry point guard house. That had been denied.
In 1976-1977 base guards had one magazine of 5.56 but had to be in the magazine pouch and officers of the day kept a loaded magazine in their pistol.
In 1982 we participated in a parade in LA, CA, each squad leader had on magazine of 5.56 in the pouch. 1982-1984 officers of the day had one loaded magazine in their pistol and one in the pouch. Interior Base guards had no ammo. Gate guards had ammo but weapons were kept unloaded.
After the Beruit Bombing where they had ammo but were not allowed to have loaded magazines, the word went out that in all dangerous areas, magazines would be loaded and in the weapon, but a round would not be in the chamber unless you felt threatened.
In Liberia in 1991, everyone kept their weapons loaded and carried a combat load of ammunition.
In 2004-2005 I was a staff puke in Iraq, we all carried a combat load but our weapons were kept unloaded unless we went out of the base or were on guard. If we left base our weapons were loaded.
Right now gate guards keep their weapons loaded.
“I actually blamed Regan because he was head of the military and should have made sure there was no such nonsense going on. I know if I was president, that would be a priority order to all military and civilian guards.”
I’m with you. Either Reagan knew, or the command structure below him should have let him know. I REALLY DOUBT that guard anywhere, especially that part of the world, like being disarmed.
I’ve always told my kids that if they get enough power (i.e., a politician, for example), they should ALWAYS ask any guard they see if their guns are loaded, and if not, find out what the problem is. Obviously a peon like me (and probably you too), would set off alarms if we started asking - but someone high up, a mayor for example, could be asking that question.
I think you’re wrong, but care not to debate it.
I don’t either, it is mostly just opinion arguing that could go on forever with no perfect conclusion, but most people don’t know about the timeline, and the fact that the invasion of Grenada that was expected to mean fighting Cubans and that would be an affront to the Russians and a thwarting of their plans, was already started when the bomb went off.
As a state employee (civilian) security policeman at an Air National Guard base we had a minimum of three men on a shift. Two carried loaded .38 Special pistols with 18 extra rounds loose in a belt pouch. The other man carried a select-fire Air Force version of the M-16 rifle with a 30 round magazine and three more magazines in a belt carrier.
Would it be possible this SOP was instituted back when 5 rounds was a full clip (for a 1903 Springfield)?
One of the reasons that the British forces at Islandwala were defeated and massacred was that that the ammunition was not ordered to be broken out, and it was very difficult to get at.
It sounds as if things are much better today, in terms of trusting the troops. The all volunteer force is very professional. Back in 1976. I still had a draftee under my command. He was one of the last ones. A really excellent soldier, you could count on him, and he would get the job done right. Moral in much of the Army was low, after the defeat at the hands of the U.S. media... oh, I mean the Vietnamese. Now we have perhaps the best military in the world, but moral is probably in the pits with the current Commander in Chief doing his best to depress it further.
On the 6 ships I served on the P.O. of the watch carried a Colt 45 auto with 5 rounds in the clip. Asked a Chief Gunners Mate why only 5 rounds in a 7 round magazine. He said they short loaded the magazine to extend the spring life in the magazine.
I pulled Divisional Guard one night at a large southern Army base back in the mid 70’s. We were issued a shotgun and 5 rounds of OO buck. They were to be kept in our pocket until a threat was perceived.
One thing I still remember about that night-I was guarding a large (20 acres?) motor park full of obsolete vehicles that were being disposed of. There must have been a couple hundred of those Jeep pickup looking things in there. 5/4 tons?
One of them had the turn signal on. Every 1/2 hr. circuit of the yard the interval increased by a bit ‘til morning it was a weak 8 seconds apart. Struck me as funny for some reason.
It was really a situation of two armed and stupid individuals with really fortunately poor marksmanship skills. We had several bullet-riddled Quonset huts but nobody hit. Hopefully, the two of them left the Corps soon afterward.
While I'm into my "while I was a PFC" stories, I stood guard at that same ammo dump in the hills of Camp Pendleton on Christmas Eve 1965 - about a month before deploying to Vietnam. In those days, we stood guard in our Service Dress Alpha (Greens) uniform with Barracks Cover, overcoat, cartridge belt and an M-14. On that late Christmas Eve, for the first time in my entire life, it snowed (I'm from Southern California). It was beautiful and I was fascinated with it. About an inch or so accumulated, so I made a snowball of some of it and as the light of the dawn of Christmas morning began, I was "putting" that ball of snow with my M-14 rifle butt when a large black car arrived at my post. I came to attention as the Commanding General, Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton stepped out of the car and I hurriedly presented arms. He walked up to me and said "what were you doing?" and I said "Golf, Sir?". He gave me a glare and said "Merry Christmas, A__hole". and got back into his car and left.
Ah, the memories!
Admiral Kidd, CINCLANTFLEET Actual, decreed that "all Atlantic Fleet naval personnel would be qualified with the .45 caliber pistol". That was really nuts: we ran completely out of all of our training and most of our war reserve ammo - 5 million rounds - within the month and the qualification percentages were abysmal. I was instructed to devise an abbreviated familiarization course of instruction and did so - and tried it out at the Dam Neck small arms range with a class of 40 average sailors.
Didn't work. Those "average sailors" were horrible shots and I quickly realized that they would have needed far more instruction and many more rounds to become proficient with a .45. My report was not well received but Admiral Kidd finally gave up and took the .45s away from the ensigns on the quarterdecks.
As a post script, I gave the same course to 18 navy wives who were residents of Dam Neck base housing and they were all excellent shots afterward. I have no idea why they were so good and the sailors so awful.
Great story!
He could have been a jerk and written you up but he found a way to light you up without leaving a paper trail. Obviously a good officer.
I don't think there are too many like that around these days.
When 20 round mags were all that was available, prior to the 30 round mags issued, 3 x 18 rounds of ball , 54 rounds total was issued to USAF Security Police AFSC 811XO.......
When 30 round mags were issued 4x30 rounds, 120 total were issued. Same AFSC 811X0.
They guarded the nukes, alert priority A resources etc....
A round of ammo cost 7 cents at that time , the bureaucracy, associated manpower, paperwork, process etc ran around 100$ per lost round to take 7 cents from the SP Ramp Rat’s pay.
USAF Security Forces today an back when they were just Security Police are / were NEVER issued just 5 rounds.
Just what I observed as a EOD Tech (AFSC 464X0) for my 26 year career in the USAF.
Stay Safe !
Note that our CG was out at dawn in his staff car visiting obscure guard posts on Christmas morning - a very nice thing for a general to be doing.
The wives had no bad habits or perceptions with firearms, listened, learned and wanted to excel is my guess, experience.
Great post..... stay safe !
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