Harris, Haley, and Ramaswamy Cannot Be President

The Post Email ^ | August 29, 2023 | Don Frederick

[Macho MAGA Man]

Kamala Harris, Nikki Haley, and Vivek Ramaswamy are not eligible to serve as president of the United States. Nor are Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz. Why? They are not “natural born citizens,” which is one of the presidential requirements outlined in the U.S. Constitution. Making that claim, of course, immediately prompts a response of, “Of course they are natural born citizens! What are you, a racist?” But those who are eager to ridicule and condemn such a statement of ineligibility are merely demonstrating their ignorance of the term natural born citizen. What is important, however, is not what television pundits (or “pundints,” as they often incorrectly refer to themselves) believe the term means, but what the Founding Fathers understood the term to mean when they decreed the following:

“No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

Probably close to 100 percent of Americans alive today believe the term natural born citizen simply means born in the United States of America. But that is not what the term meant to the authors of the U.S. Constitution.

[DiogenesLamp]

Thanks for the compliment on my using Article 14 to interpret Article 1. I'll use that approach in the absence of hard information on how to interpret "natural born citizen" in Article 1.

Let me give you some hard information on how to interpret "natural born citizen" in Article 1.

This is a page from a Pennsylvania Law book published in 1817, and is described as being based on the report of the entire Pennsylvania Supreme court in 1808.

Philadelphia was the site of the Constitutional convention, and many of the judges on the Pennsylvania supreme court were participants in the process of creating and ratifying the US constitution.

These judges know better than anyone what was meant by "natural born citizen".

[odawg]

You would be surprised how ignorant these people can be.

Chief Justice Roberts has already stated that the 14th amendment cannot be applied to a president, he said the president is not a government official since he is elected.

[faucetman]

educate yourselves before you make a fool of yourself.

http://www.usnaturalborncitizen.com/index.html

(Wrong about McCain though)

[pfflier]

But my mother always told me I could grow up to be president...

[JayGalt]

2) By Descent (Section 4)

A person born outside India on or after 26th January 1950 but before 10th December 1992
is a citizen of India by descent, if his father was a citizen of India by birth at the time of his birth. In case the father was a citizen of India by descent only, that person shall not be a citizen of India, unless his birth is registered at an Indian Consulate within one year from the date of birth or with the permission of the Central Government, after the expiry of the said period.
A person born outside India on or after 10th December 1992 but before 3rd December, 2004, is considered as a citizen of India if either of his parents was a citizen of India by birth at the time of his birth. In case either of the parents was a citizen of India by descent, that person shall not be a citizen of India, unless his birth is registered at an Indian Consulate within one year from the date of birth or with the permission of the Central Government, after the expiry of the said period.
A person born outside India on or after 3rd Decmber, 2004 shall not be a citizen of India, unless the parents declare that the minor does not hold passport of another country and his birth is registered at an Indian consulate within one year of the date of birth or with the permission of the Central Government, after the expiry of the said period.

[glennaro]

In recent years the USSC has conveniently removed itself from having to consider and rule on the Constitutionality of issues such as this by simply announcing any plaintiff who brings suit doesn't have "standing" ... a legal way of saying the plaintiff's concern is not worthy of consideration.
Talk about taking the easy way out! ...

[Dilbert San Diego]

LOL, well, that says something about the quality and education of people working in government agencies, doesn’t it?

Off topic, reminds me that someone at National Geographic was charging people in New Mexico a higher subscription rate due to those being international subscriptions, rather than domestic.

That’s LOL funny, to consider an organization where people know their geography, would think that New Mexico is a foreign country.

[Boogieman]

“How would all of their actions be unraveled? It would be a God awful mess of the worst sort...”

They can’t be. They won’t be. The best we could hope for is that a precedent would be set to avoid a similar situation in the future. After all, even if the Supreme Court now rules that Obama would have been unqualified, he still was sworn in as President, so he held the office. Closing the barn door now can’t change that.

[FreedomForce]

But he was also born a U.S. citizen and India doen’t allow dual citizenship, so which citizenship holds?

[Just mythoughts]

Then why did the Senate need to resolve lord McCain was eligible..

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/sres511/text

They knew damn well he was not… look who benefitted over this muddying the waters.. Obama cleaned McCain's clock.

[FreedomForce]

DeSantis’s mother may have been a U.S. citizen even though she grew up in Poland. I’d like to know more details.

[DMZFrank]

The 3/5th compromise was actually an anti-slavery provision. The pro-slavers wanted a slave to count as a whole person for purposes of congressional apportionment, which would naturally increase their power in Congress. The anti-slavers did not want them counted at all, since they had no rights as citizens.

Therefore, the devil’s bargain was made. The War Between the States was proof that you should not sup with the devil, no matter how long your spoon is.

[DiogenesLamp]

However, if we have Federalist papers or other writings from Hamilton or Jay or Jefferson about how "natural born citizen" should be interpreted, then I'll take that over my Article 14 approach.

*THIS* is purported to have been written by James Madison, but so far as I know there is no absolute proof of this.

It is written under the pseudonym "Publius" which is a pseudonym that Madison used extensively in writing his portion of the Federalist papers, and the entire article contains information that only the President, or someone very close to him would know about this particular case.

It is a high probability that it was written by James Madison.

For the full page:

http://naturalborncitizen.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/oct-1-1811.pdf

[Dilbert San Diego]

someone mentioned Dukakis earlier. Were his parents citizens when he was born? If not, then based on the strictest criteria being discussed here, then he would not have been a natural born citizen.

And all of these discussions depend on the criteria we are using to define citizenship. Some people say both parents must have been American citizens at the time of your birth for you to be natural born. But what about Obama, who only had 1 parent who was an American citizen? Ditto Ted Cruz, if he ever runs for president again. Only his mother was an American citizen when he was born.

[woodpusher]

The source article makes a convincing argument against that premise. Consider the following: Two diplomats from Russia are serving in the Russian Embassy in DC. They "bump their Russkie uglies" and nine months later head over to the hospital in DC to give birth to 8lb 2oz baby Boris. Is Boris a natural born citizen and therefore able to run for President when he's 35? Or is he not?

Insufficient information given. Only accredited diplomats enjoy diplomatic immunity. If the diplomats were accredited, then the child is Russian at birth. If the diplomats were unaccredited, there is no diplomatic immunity, and the child is a natural born United States citizen.

I remember this coming up with John McCain, he wasn’t born in the USA, he was born in Panama, but both his parents were born here, therefore he could be POTUS.

Agreed. And because both of McCain's parents were citizens, McCain would be eligible. This would be the opposite of the Russian theoretical above. Two Americans do the deed in another country, their kid is a citizen even if born in that country.

Birth outside the United States is controlled by whatever Federal law was applicable at the time of birth. The McCain case was a mess.

Act of May 24, 1934; 48 Stat. 797, "To amend; the law relative to citizenship and naturalization, and for other purposes, starts out amending Section 1993 of the citizenship law.

"Sec. 1993. Any child hereafter born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States...."

Congress had good intent but lousy logic.

Hay-Bunau Treaty, 1903

ARTICLE III

The Republic of Panama grants to the United States all the rights, power and authority within the zone mentioned and described in Article II of this agreement and within the limits of all auxiliary lands and waters mentioned and described in said Article II which the United States would possess and exercise if it were the sovereign of the territory within which said lands and waters are located to the entire exclusion of the exercise by the Republic of Panama of any such sovereign rights, power or authority.

"would possess … if it were the sovereign" establishes that the U.S. was not the sovereign, but exercised jurisdiction as if it were the sovereign.

The 14th Amendment applied to all those born within the territory and jurisdiction of the United States. McCain was not born within the territory of the United States.

The Federal statute applied to all born outside the territory and jurisdiction of the U.S. McCain was born outside the territory but within the jurisdiction of the United States. While intending to cover all not covered by the 14th Amendment, Congress needed the word or where they used and.

Because congress screwed up, McCain appeared to fall under neither 14A nor the Federal statute.

A fix to the congressional screwup came with another Federal statute.

Act of August 4, 1937, 50 Stat. 558, "Relating to the citizenship of certain classes of persons born in the Canal Zone or the Republic of Panama.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House o f Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this Act, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.

SEC. 2. Any person born in the Republic of Panama on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this Act, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States employed by the Government of the United States or by the Panama Railroad Company, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.

Approved, August 4, 1937.

So, McCain, born in 1936, was retroactively declared a citizen at birth. Canal Zone records contain no entry of McCain's birth. There are still more technicalities, but this covers birth in the Canal Zone. Birth on a military base is irrelevent to citizenship status at birth.

Federal law for overseas births may require registration of the birth with an embassy and may require a certain period of residency in the United States by a certain age. Such conditions have been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court as constitutional.

[DiogenesLamp]

They already have. My history is hazy, been a long time since I read it, but there was a ruling about citizenship in the 60s. The Supreme Court ruled on a citizenship case, and mentioned natural born citizenship as in the context of having citizen parents.

Are you thinking of Rogers vs Bellei?

In that case they decided that someone who was born a citizen through a naturalization statute could lose his citizenship for failing to comply with the requirements congress put into the law granting citizenship at birth.

The Naturalization Act of 1790 defined it as having citizen parents.

It did not "define" it, it alluded to it, but that language was stripped out in the next version which they created in 1794, if I recall correctly.

You cannot define natural citizenship by law. It is like trying to claim an adopted child is an actual child of your blood. It is not, and it cannot be. It can only be an adopted child.

[DiogenesLamp]

Are we saying Rubio and Cruz have allegiance to Cuba? Neither are Cuban citizens.

Cruz was born in Canada to a Cuban father. Only his mother was American at the time.

I'm sure Canada would recognize his Canadian citizenship if should ever want it.

And I supported Cruz for President in 2016. I still think he is one of our best.

[faucetman]

There are only TWO types of U.S. “citizens”.

Native and Naturalized. PERIOD!

“Natural born citizen” is NOT a “type” of citizenship.

It is a “status”, a “condition”, a constitutional “requirement” to be president or vice president of the United States.

All persons meeting the natural born citizen “requirements” ARE native citizens. U.S. citizens AT BIRTH.

BUT, not ALL native citizens meet the natural born citizen “requirements” to be president/vice president, born on U.S. “soil” by TWO citizen parentS.

Naturalized citizens, citizens by “law’ (14th amendment or some law passed by Congress) not birth, can NOT meet natural born citizen requirements. They were NOT citizens at birth.

[JayGalt]

He is entitled to be considered a citizen of India and India would have jurisdiction. Birth right citizenship is not an American law. It is a regulation of the US Citizenship & Immigration Services.
That is why President Trump & several other candidates have included the removal of this policy as part of their platforms. I do not believe Indian citizenship could be renounced until adulthood since there are legal forms in the process.

https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-h-chapter-3

[DiogenesLamp]

Only two words are needed to disprove this: Barack Obama.

If the courts tell you a man can become a woman, do you believe that too?