Real-Time Updates on the October 6, 2011 E-Cat Test

>>It was shut down after 4 hours. It seems they are going to let it cool down for 5hrs. and then disassemble it for inspection and measurements. <<

Had to do the same with wife #1...

"Duh! I wasn’t thinking. Obviously they shot off the Hydrogen."

Just shutting off the hydrogen alone won't do it. The amount of hydrogen contained in the reactor zone is sufficient for several hours of run-time. As I understand it, what they do is VENT the hydrogen (rapidly drop the pressure). Reactor has to be significantly pressurized for the reaction to "go" or to "continue going".

That is REALLY cool! Character-based graphics (much less animations) are a very delicate art form. In the old days it was all we had. Nowadays we should appreciate it!

If I am assembling the data properly, this could be a Big Deal. Maybe even a Huge Deal.

It’s Hugh and Series

My beeber is set to issue a stune-level alert after they refire it up and compile the results!

News:Real-Time Updates on the October 6, 2011 E-Cat Test

One of the fifty-two 27-kW modules that make up the 1 MW unit. We are quite sure that it will be one of these modules that will be the subject of the October 6 testing.
Screen shot from video by Mats Lewan, Ny Teknik.

Shortcut url: http://RossiColdFusion.com (now points to the PESN location)

For the next few days, PES will be scanning the net to bring you the latest and most up-to-date information about the important October 6 test of the E-Cat (Energy Catalyzer), taking place in Bologna, Italy. Keep checking this page for the latest news and updates!

Hot Link to Updates

by Hank Mills
Pure Energy Systems News
Page commenced October 5, 2011

Introduction
On October 6th of 2011, a very important test of Andrea Rossi's E-Cat (Energy Catalyzer) will take place in the city of Bologna, Italy. Attending the test will be invited scientists from around the world, including staff from the University of Bologna .

This test may be the most important so far, due to the fact many of the issues that remain unresolved in previous tests, will potentially be resolved. For example, one issue that remained unresolved in tests earlier this year was the issue of steam quality. In this test, the quality of steam will not be an issue. This is because the output of the E-Cat will be a closed circuit, in that the water will be turned into steam, allowed to heat a second flow of water through a heat exchanger, be recycled, and then used again. By removing this issue, the most controversial subject of debate will be eliminated .

Additional issues are also expected to be resolved by this test .

- The E-Cat module will be taken apart (except for the reactor core) so the components can be measured and weighed .

- The test will last for 12 hours or longer .

- The E-Cat module will be allowed to operate in self sustain mode -- with no input power -- for an extended period of time .

- Better measurement and data acquisition techniques will be utilized .

For the next few days, all news and information about the test will be posted below, in as close to real time as possible. Please share and spread the link to this webpage, as we plan to be providing top notch coverage of this pivotal test of the E-Cat .

(BTW, I will be around to answer questions in the comment section.) Contents
[hide]
1 Summaries
1.1 October 6, 2011 Summary
2 Updates and News Regarding October 6 Test
2.1 October 6, 2011
2.2 October 5, 2011
3 Links
4 Forums
5 Frequently Asked Questions
6 See also Summaries
October 6, 2011 Summary
Hank Mills writes:
So far, it seems that the test of the E-Cat went well. Around thirty scientists and engineers from around the world showed up. Among these individuals were Christos Stremmenos, who is on the board of directors of Defkalion. In addition, professors Levi and Ferrari from the University of Bologna were present at the test. Dr. Focardi also attended the test. Media representatives from NyTecnic, Radio 24, and Focus.it documented the test. They took many photos and videos that will be posted in the coming days .

On the technical side of things, it seems the E-Cat performed well. We do not have final numbers for energy in and out, but we have been told the E-Cat self sustained for four hours with no input. We were told the E-Cat itself got incredibly hot (so hot those present could not touch it), the heat exchanger worked well, a steam temperature of 110 C was recorded inside of the E-Cat, and the energy output was so much larger than the input, that there was no need to extend the length test .

What is very important is that no one has indicated the test was a failure, the results were bad, or that there was a major technical problem. From all reports, this test was a success. Of course we will have to wait until tomorrow for all of the information to be posted online, before we form a final conclusion .

If this test was as successful as it seems, this could be the dawning of a new age. Perhaps in the next few days the results of this test will wake up the dumbstream media from their slumber, and force them to admit to the world that cold fusion is a reality .

Keep checking here over the next few days for the latest news and information about the test! There is a flood of information that should be arriving over the next few days, and you can get all of the updates on this page!
Updates and News Regarding October 6 Test
(See also the Comments section at the bottom of the page. Feel free to post updates there.)
October 6, 2011
What is so important about the Energy Catalyzer?
If the E-Cat is proven to be legitimate by this test, it will be the biggest breakthrough in the last hundred years. Cold fusion is a process in which tiny amounts of common metals (such as nickel) and tiny amounts of hydrogen, can replace barrels of oil. It could make solar power, wind power, conventional nuclear power, and fossil fuel power obsolete .

In time, the E-Cat technology could make the price of energy to down one hundred fold or more. At the same time, the energy produced would emit no pollution, and would not produce any nuclear waste. The technology would first be used to product hot water, but eventually would be used to produce electricity, and power our cars .

All we need is for tomorrow's test to show clear evidence of massive excess heat .

-- Nocompromises 19:47, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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An article about today's test of the E-Cat has been posted by, "The Nebraska Engineer."
http://mnispel.net/neengineer/?p=229
Rossi e-cat – Oct 6 significant test
"Today Rossi’s Low Energy Nuclear Energy device was tested again in Bologna Italy. Previous test results have come under scrutiny because of technical details in measuring how much energy the device actually put out. The measurement method was altered for this test to answer those criticisms. In addition, the test was observed, recorded, pictured, and filmed by around 30 scientists, engineers, professors, and journalists .

Early first reports can be seen here and here. Details and conclusions on the success of the test will have to wait the publication of reports in the following days. But all early indications are that the test went well. The e-cat was reported by observers to have run in “self-sustaining mode”, that is, no input energy while continuing to generate output energy, for 4 straight hours. All of this leads up to the scheduled installation and demonstration of a 1MW generation version of 52 e-cats tied together at the end of October."
-- Nocompromises 19:29, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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The Free Energy Truth website has posted a good review of today's news .

Remember, the flood of news will be arriving in the next few days!
http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com/2011/10/ecat-test-mainstream-finally-break-9.html
"Soon after Wired published their article, SlashDot followed and then many more lesser known blogs and sites. The LARGE global controlled media and science journals still refuse to submit to the growing pressure to report these events - similar to how the Chinese media block anything relating to the events in Tiananmen Square."
-- Nocompromises 18:13, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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The liberal website DailyKos has a page about the E-Cat test. It seems that the news of this test is spreading!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/06/1023561/-Cold-Fusion:-Andrea-Rossi%E2%80%99s-Energy-Catalyzer-Appears-to-Pass-Test?via=siderecent
Cold Fusion: Andrea Rossi’s Energy Catalyzer Appears to Pass Test
"Inspired by a xaxnar diary from Aug 16th, Power From Fusion – It May Be A Horse Race, I have been following the story of Andrea Rossi’s Energy Catalyzer “cold fusion” generator. Today, Oct 6th, in Bologna, Italy, the most important test yet appears to have been a success."
-- Nocompromises 18:01, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
There are a few facts I think many people are not aware about the E-Cat module that is being tested. I think it is important that these facts are made known .

1) Rossi has stated that the rated output for one of these reactors is 27 kilowatts, but for safety purposes during testing the devices will be throttled down to 1/3rd of that. The reason for this is that in self sustain mode E-Cats can "run away." This means that the output can become unstable, and can increase higher and higher. In torture tests, the units can explode .

2) Due to the fact that there is a primary circuit that supplies heat to a secondary circuit through a heat exchanger, there will be some loss in efficiency. The efficiency of transferring the output energy from the E-Cat to the secondary circuit may be very low. So whatever the output is, the "real" output would be higher .

3)The current E-Cat model being tested is not the "Fat Cat" E-Cat. The "Fat Cat" reactor is the model that has not yet been revealed, that will be attached to the output of the one megawatt plant, and will boost the output to one megawatt .

4) The 52 modules that compose the one megawatt plant will not be the only modules used. An auxiliary unit will be attached to the output, to boost the output to one megawatt .

-- Nocompromises 17:38, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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We posted #October 6, 2011 Summary above .

-- SilverThunder 16:02, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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Here is a post by Daniele Passerini, that he made in the comment section of his blog .

http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/10/test-e-cat-del-6-ottobre-bologna.html?commentPage=3
@ All I see someone who continues to judge that is thought to be rather than what it is. Meanwhile, Bologna and Uppsala go forward, confident and even more convinced today than yesterday .

The E-Cat warms, but the party is just beginning. It's a metaphor, of course, here it's over an hour and a half in advance and we're all leaving. I put my bike in between myself and a maximum of 3 hours I'll be home. Good evening to all .

Over the next few days (but already starting tomorrow) will be released so much material produced here today that all the skeptics of the world are likely to go seriously overdose!
-- Nocompromises 13:38, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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Another Tweet from Daniele Passerini .

http://twitter.com/#!/22passi
"Rechecked the calibration (so they say) even at the end of the test thermocouples (with ice)."
-- Nocompromises 13:24, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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More Tweets from Raymond Zreick
http://twitter.com/#!/raymond_zreick
"Is not much good inside. If you think hi-tech ... not. To be honest, open, e-cat is almost disappointing. Really that's it?"
(I think what he is trying to say is that the E-Cat is very simple. He is not trying to say the E-Cat does not have anything "good" that works inside.)
"Yet, it seems to do its job well (a great hunt hot): the mysterious member, however, do not have showed .

(The mysterious member is the reactor core. It is the reactor core that was inside the black box.)
"We couldn't take pictures of the open cell, and they didn't show us directly the secret reactor."
-- Nocompromises 13:20, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Here is Daniele Passerini's latest Tweet .

http://twitter.com/#!/22passi
"We could all see the inside of the form E-Cat. Now proceed to the weight of the exchanger, then you will too."
-- Nocompromises 12:54, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Raymond Zreick, a senior editor at focus.it, has made many interesting comments on Twitter. Here are the comments with some small grammatical changes .

http://twitter.com/#!/raymond_zreick
"The E-cat worked in self-sustained mode from 14.58 until 19. At 19 the cool down started."
"Between 3 p.m. until 7 p.m. the temperature average delta has been of 5°C (water input/output) for 0,6 cubic meters per hour."
"Among the guests there are Levi, Stremmenos and Ferrari (alma mater di bologna), Focardi and other physicists from different companies."
"When the device will be cooler (the steam temperature has been measured to be over 110°C), it will be OPENED for us!"
"We'll be able to take pictures of all the components, BUT the SMALL black box with the so called secret ingredient."
"We'll tell you more about the black box when we see it."
So what is in the little black box? That is the big question! Could it contain the catalyst? If so, that does not make sense, because Rossi stated that only small amounts of the catalyst are needed, and just like the nickel, it would not need to be replenished except every six months or so. Perhaps the reactor core is inside of the black box?
-- Nocompromises 12:49, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Jed Rothwell, a long time cold fusion researcher, has made a very informative post on the Vortex L email list. The post describes how the heat in self sustain mode cannot be "stored" heat from when there was a constant input going into the system. The materials that compose the device simply cannot store that much heat!
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg52231.html
Here is one paragraph from the post .

"You need to stop fretting about stored heat. It cannot explain any of the significant cold fusion reactions that have been reported. It is orders of magnitude too small for that. It is a non-issue. We can always tell how much heat is stored and we always know that it cannot explain the reaction. Stored heat and recombination are the bugbears of pathological skeptics who do not understand elementary physics."
-- Nocompromises 12:25, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Daniele Passerini has posted a few new images in the last few hours. Here is an image of the one megawatt plant .

-- Nocompromises 12:07, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
The following was shared with us (over an hour ago) by one of our contacts .

"At 19:00, after 4 hours of continuous self-sustaining operation, the reaction has been interrupted as planned. This will allow some time for the E-Cat module to cool down. Afterwards, it will be disassembled and inspected. The end of the operations is planned for 00:00."
-- Nocompromises 12:00, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Daniele Passerini has posted some interesting updates on his Twitter page and blog. Please forgive the fact that this news is a couple hours old. He has reported that the E-Cat self sustained with zero input power, for over four hours! The E-Cat has been turned off, and will be allowed to cool. Then it will be taken apart and the inside of the device will be examined, and all the components will be weighed again (they were weighed before the test started) .

http://twitter.com/#!/22passi
-- Nocompromises 11:52, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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This is Hank Mills. I would like to sincerely apologize for the less than stellar coverage we have provided of today's test of the Energy Catalyzer. To be blunt, the coverage has been a disaster. We have been experiencing technical difficulties after receiving a large amount of traffic. At one point I could not even log in to make an update. From this point on, unless more technical difficulties occur, I am going to stay right here and provide constant updates for the next several days. Please check right here, because I'm not going anywhere .

-- Nocompromises 11:44, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Finally! The server is fixed. It was an Apache server settings issue. Sorry for the downtime .

Armando writes: at 19:00, after 4 hours of continuous self-sustaining operation, the reaction has been interrupted as planned. This will allow some time for the E-Cat module to cool down. Afterwards, it will be disassembled and inspected. The end of the operations is planned for 00:00 .

-- SilverThunder 11:36, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Well, we got slashdotted, and we were already getting bogged down on the server from the traffic we were getting; so we're in process of moving the site to a high-traffic server. Sorry for the inconvenience. It should be resolved shortly. Today is a historic day for cold fusion. Lots of people will be watching .

Best Exotic FE: Nuclear > Cold Fusion > Rossi >
Does Italian Demo Show Cold Fusion, or Snake Oil? - Today, Wired.co.uk is running a story, 'Cold fusion rears its head as "E-Cat" research promises to change the world.' It gives an overview of the technology that claims to fuse hydrogen and nickel into copper, with no radioactive by-products, to produce copious amounts of heat, inexpensively, with a 1 megawatt plant scheduled to come on line later this month. Apparently, Wired was not aware that today is a big test in Italy by scientists from around the world, who will be observing the technology in operation, including self-looped mode. (Slashdot; October 6, 2011)

-- SilverThunder 09:00, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Hank writes:
Focus.it senior editor Raymond Zreick posted this to their forum. It seems to indicate that there are a lot of experts at the test of the E-Cat .

coffee break ...
Here there is such a concentration of "brains" to be afraid .. .

-- SilverThunder 08:32, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Here's a news bullet for the item just below .

Best Exotic FE: Nuclear > Cold Fusion > Rossi > Validations >
Belated report of E-Cat testing 7 July 2011 - "This morning, Professor. Stremmenos began to tell me about a test done on July 7 last year citing from memory some parts of his report ... I asked him then if this report could be released! I obtained permission to publish the report, so far kept confidential, the test in a form similar e-Cat to what we are testing this morning." [in Italy] (22Passi; October 6, 2011)

-- SilverThunder 08:17, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Daniele Passerini has posted information about a previous test of the E-Cat performed on July 7, 2011, which has been kept quiet until now. The test showed operation of the device in self sustain mode. The test had to be cut short, due to a power outage. Lets hope that there is not a power outage during today's test .

http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/10/test-e-cat-7-luglio-2011.html

-- Nocompromises 07:50, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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URGENT NOTE TO ANYONE AT THE TEST WHO IS READING THIS: Could you please contact us with your phone number so we can get up-to-the-minute updates and clarifications on the testing as it takes place? Thanks -- sterlingda@pureenergysystems.com; skype: sterlingda
-- SilverThunder 07:40, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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Raymond Zreick of Focus.it has posted the following to his Twitter account, indicating that a variety of tests have already been made .

http://twitter.com/#!/raymond_zreick
"We are in Bologna, the EFA for us the appointment was for 12, but various other operations had already been made, always in the presence of some of the guests. I can not tell Purtroopo what's happening minute by minute: Rossi are our commitments to make no report until tomorrow, and I just remember them ... tomorrow, however, we will have photos, videos, interviews ... "
-- Nocompromises 07:27, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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Francesco CH writes: Tomorrow the complete list of the participants
-- SilverThunder 07:16, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Daniele Passerini states that... .

"Mats Lewan and Raymond Zreick are exchanging impressions about the current phase of self-sustain."
http://twitter.com/#!/22passi
-- Nocompromises 07:13, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Here's a separate news item from a mainstream source -- a rarity, that hopefully will become the norm .

Best Exotic FE: Nuclear > Cold Fusion > Rossi >
Cold fusion rears its head as 'E-Cat' research promises to change the world - "Is Andrea Rossi the messiah -- or just a very naughty boy?" begins this mainstream article. "Rossi, an Italian inventor, claims to have come up with the Holy Grail of power generation, an 'Energy Catalyser' or E-Cat, which produces limitless energy. He has already carried out laboratory demonstrations in front of scientists and the Italian media, and in October ... " (Wired.co.uk; October 6, 2011)

-- SilverThunder 07:07, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Here is a new picture of the one megawatt plant from Daniele Passerini's Twitter feed. It should be noted that the plant is not being tested today, but only one module out of the 52 that compose the plant .

-- Nocompromises 06:57, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -

Daniele Passerini has posted several updates to Twitter, including a picture of the one megawatt plant, pictures of a large group of people looking inside of the plant, and pictures of many people attending .

http://twitter.com/#!/22passi
-- Nocompromises 06:36, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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Hank writes: "Daniele Passerini claimed it not long ago on his twitter feed, that the device is in self sustain mode."
-- SilverThunder 06:22, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
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I just submitted this article to Slashdot:
Cold Fusion E-Cat being Tested Today - Today, Wired.co.uk is running a story: "Cold fusion rears its head as 'E-Cat' research promises to change the world". It gives an overview of the technology that claims to fuse hydrogen and nickle into copper, with no radioactive by-products, to produce copious amounts of heat, inexpensively, with a 1 megawatt plant scheduled to come on line later this month. Apparently, Wired was not aware that today is a big test in Italy by scientists from around the world, who will be observing the technology in operation, including self-looped mode. A real-time update page has been set up at PESWiki, which has been a primary news provider of this technology since it was announced last January .

-- SilverThunder 06:18, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Wired has posted an article about the E-Cat technology .

"Cold fusion rears its head as 'E-Cat' research promises to change the world"
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/06/e-cat-cold-fusion
-- Nocompromises 05:56, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
Focus.it page of questions - receiving comments/suggestions for a Focus.it guy who will be present at the demonstration .

-- SilverThunder 03:56, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
- - - -
From Rossi’s page .

Andrea Rossi
October 6th, 2011 at 12:40 AM
I WANT TO THANK WITH ALL MY HEART ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAS SENT DELIGHTING WISHES FOR THE WORK OF TODAY .

WARM REGARDS TO ALL,
ANDREA ROSSI
-- SilverThunder 03:48, 6 October 2011 (PDT)

Re: [Vo]:No, it would not be a "small" local heater, and no you cannot "hide" it http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg52326.html Jed Rothwell Thu, 06 Oct 2011 19:00:14 -0700 Daniel Rocha wrote: Jed, so, you can say now that you are convinced that eCat is 100% true. Unless these people are lying. Or, unless when they open the reactor they find a 5 kW heating element. There may be some problem with the test. Let us wait to see the reports. My point is that the problem suggested by Murray is ruled out. There is no such thing as an invisible 5 kW electric water heater with no wires. That's ridiculous. That does not mean all other problems are ruled out, or ridiculous. For example, it could be that the inlet and outlet thermocouples are not properly calibrated. There might be a large bias. I hope that they took steps to ensure this is not the case. I suggested several steps they should take to do this. I have not heard yet whether they did take these or other steps. A lot of things can go wrong with flow calorimetry. However, many people are practiced in the technique, and it is not difficult to eliminate all likely sources of error. Whether they eliminated them in this test I cannot say. The previous reports were not detailed enough to ensure that all sources were eliminated, but they did give me the impression that an error is unlikely. The previous tests should have been more rigorous, and the reports should have been more detailed. They should have included, for example, the make and model of every instrument used, and some discussion of null runs and calibration. Krivit says there is "no evidence" of heat in 10 tests. That's an outrageous exaggeration. There was considerable evidence even if it was poorly presented and not fully convincing. There was also evidence of other Ni-H reactions from other researchers. In cutting edge scientific research, if you demand perfectly convincing proof before you begin to believe something -- or at least find it credible -- and you demand that every i dotted and every t crossed, you will never look at any interesting new claims. All discoveries are a mixture of true and false. It remains to be seen whether this test will be convincing. - Jed

I sincerely hope this thing is real. I love to see someone succeed on a great untertaking. If it is real it will be bigger than anything in my lifetime and probably bigger than the internal combustion engine in terms of lifting burdens from the human race. Here’s hoping it is not a fraud.

Where there's hope, there's fraud. Take Obama for example.

Unless these people are lying.

The most important sentence in your post, or wherever you copy and pasted it from.

You know how many people that would have to be?

No, probably not. You seem incapable of absorbing facts.

T4BTT, Seagull

http://www.asylum.co.uk/2011/09/15/video-witness-cruelty-to-seagulls/

I wonder if there is actual detectable copper produced. Or this would be inside the impenetrable and unassailable “reactor chamber” off limits to anyone but Rossi and, presumably, God. Will be interesting in so many ways if the thing really works.

Somebody wake me up if this thing actually does something irrefutable.

Wake up, beyotch

Your result for The Which Stupid Creature Are You Test...

You are a Seagull

You scored 21% fire, 47% water, 44% air, and 33% earth!

You are a Seagull... which makes you annoying as all hell. On the bright side you get to eat plenty of chips... just avoid the chip with the asprin inside, cause apparently you can neither burp or fart.

Take The Which Stupid Creature Are You Test at HelloQuizzy

Unless these people are lying.

How many people would have to be lying at this point? It's gotten beyond that point, I think. There are too many people now from too many organizations (etc.), giving this a thumbs up, to easily dismiss it. The only significant critics are Krivit and Julian Brown, based mostly on negative interpretations of informal observations.

I agree with other comments desiring to see more precise measuring and reporting, listing the instruments used and so forth. But this is either a spectacularly executed fraud fooling a good many engineers and physicists on-site with an impressively hidden power source, or it is real. I'm starting to lean towards real, at long last.

Touchy, aren’t you ?

But this is either a spectacularly executed fraud fooling a good many engineers and physicists on-site with an impressively hidden power source, or it is real.

I'm voting for the former, but I don't see how it's spectacular or impressive.

There have been a lot of seagulls visiting these cold fusion threads. Their input has been about as useful as seagull poop.

Let’s hope you are not one of them.

A seagull goes to a barber shop, sits down in the chair, the barber cuts his feathers, and after he gets done, as the guy gets up and is taking out his money, the barber goes over and takes a leak in the corner of the barber shop. Takes a piss! The barber finishes and comes back.
As the seagull hands him a twenty-dollar bill, he says, “Listen, it’s...it’s none of my business, but why...why would you take a piss in the corner of your barber shop?”
The barber says, “Hey, my lease is up in two weeks. Do I care?”
The barber goes over to the cash register, rings up the haircut, and comes back with the seagull’s change. When he comes back, the seagull is standing there taking a poop on the floor.
The barber says, “What are you doing?”
The guy says, “Well, heck, I’m leaving now.”

Do you have any ideas about how the fraud is being executed? At some point some skeptic is going to have to find the hidden wire or microwave energy source or _something_. What’s the fun of being a skeptic if people are going to be so lazy about it and not even try to figure out how the fraud is being done?