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F-22 Pilots Donít Want to Fly the F-22
Gizmodo ^ | May 1, 2012 | Sam Biddle

Posted on 05/01/2012 11:25:46 AM PDT by Daffynition

Not exactly a grand gesture of confidence: some of the US Air Force's airmen, the world's most elite, want nothing to do with the Air Force's "elite" new fighter. Why? Because the only people it's threatening are its own pilots. ABC News reports, shockingly, that the admission came from within the Air Force itself—the Pentagon isn't usually a font of mea culpas:

Gen. Mike Hostage, commander of Air Combat Command at Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, Va., told reporters that a "very small" number of pilots have asked not to fly the fifth-generation fighter jets or to be reassigned.

(Excerpt) Read more at gizmodo.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Military/Veterans; Science
KEYWORDS: aerospace; f22
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1 posted on 05/01/2012 11:25:48 AM PDT by Daffynition
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To: Daffynition

I thought F-22s we going to TDY to the UAE soon?


2 posted on 05/01/2012 11:29:59 AM PDT by RexBeach (Mr. Obama Can't Count.)
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To: Jet Jaguar

Ping.


3 posted on 05/01/2012 11:31:30 AM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four Fried Chickens and a Coke)
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To: Daffynition

If so, then the modern USAF pilots have gotten pretty wimpy. They’d wet themselves at the thought of an F-104...


4 posted on 05/01/2012 11:32:09 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (A conservative can't please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff)
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To: Daffynition

Yesterday, it was how the F-35 is a terrible platform. Now, its the F-22. What the heck has happened to manned military aviation?


5 posted on 05/01/2012 11:34:16 AM PDT by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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To: Daffynition
That's like when we switched from Hueys to Blackhawks in the Army. I don't recall a single flight where I didn't have a caution or warning light come on or some sort of a problem with the damn things. Almost every single flight ended in a precautionary landing. Had a few electrical fires in flight as well. That's why I jumped at the opportunity to fly the boring Army fixed wing missions the second a slot opened up.
6 posted on 05/01/2012 11:35:18 AM PDT by cll (I am the warrant and the sanction)
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To: RexBeach

I don’t blame them. The plane has a serious issue with its oxygen system. This won’t affect their readiness though. There are still plenty of pilots willing and able to fly the plane.


7 posted on 05/01/2012 11:39:00 AM PDT by saganite (What happens to taglines? Is there a termination date?)
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To: Daffynition
A beautiful, flowing design. When I see an F-22, it reminds me of this:


8 posted on 05/01/2012 11:40:17 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: Daffynition

Mission commander: Alright, ladies! Who wants to pilot the flying deathtraps (aka F-22) for today’s mission?

Hand raises in the back: I do! I do! If I run out of O2 I’ll just roll down the window!


9 posted on 05/01/2012 11:40:20 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Daffynition
Air Force leader says some pilots want to avoid F-22 because of oxygen-deficit problems
10 posted on 05/01/2012 11:40:51 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Jack Hydrazine; tx_eggman

Those TAMU grads... whoop!


11 posted on 05/01/2012 11:43:39 AM PDT by SpinnerWebb (In 2012 you will awaken from your HOPEnosis and have no recollection of this... "Constitution")
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To: UCANSEE2

My first thought also. What a fine-looking airframe that is. From a decidedly unqualified point-of-view, I’d love to fly one. Damn, us Americans do make some pretty fine military aircraft. Functionality may be a problem that has to work itself out, but it is always going to look good doing it’s job.


12 posted on 05/01/2012 11:44:57 AM PDT by RonInNaples
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To: Daffynition

Glad to see...them using Red Neck duck tape on that baby!!!


13 posted on 05/01/2012 11:48:13 AM PDT by Osage Orange (The MSM is the most dangerous entity in the United States of America.)
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To: Daffynition

Is that bondo or strips of duct tape on top of that jet?


14 posted on 05/01/2012 11:51:15 AM PDT by Hot Tabasco (My 6 pack abs are now a full keg......)
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To: Hot Tabasco

is someone pushing drones?


15 posted on 05/01/2012 11:55:07 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Mr Rogers

It’s one thing if you know a plane is a bear to fly.

The air supply/blackout issue is not yet fixed and I can understand this is a problem that can happen and you not be aware of it until you’re nodding off and blacking out. It is also intermittent so you never know if or when it will happen.


16 posted on 05/01/2012 11:57:26 AM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: Daffynition

It’s so expensive, they will get in career-ending trouble for ejecting if there is a problem.


17 posted on 05/01/2012 11:58:46 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves (CTRL-GALT-DELETE)
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To: Mr Rogers

One can reasonably assume that after having 30+ more years experience building jets since the f-104, that it should not be like flying an f-104.


18 posted on 05/01/2012 12:00:11 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: RonInNaples

Look it up.

Every time...and I mean every time a major weapon system is being developed there are articles and complaints.

Same as these for f-22 and f-35.

Too costly, too complicated, cost overruns, wrong for the mission etc. Every time.

See M-1 abrams, f-15, f-16, Osprey...You name it, there are the same complaints. Usually coming from those who hate the military and cover their true intentions by saying they are just “looking out for the troops” or “looking out for the peoples money”. When the truth is they hate the military and spend every dime that’s sent to Washington.


19 posted on 05/01/2012 12:01:58 PM PDT by saleman (!!!!)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Oh, just another example.

B-1 bomber.

You ever seen one of these fly? Beautiful.

I was at Lake Martin one summer day, on a boat close to the dam. Along comes this B-1 flying low and slow. Looked a lot like a huge f-16. Anyway, that thing just pulled the nose up, hit the gas, and it was just.....gone.


20 posted on 05/01/2012 12:11:20 PM PDT by saleman (!!!!)
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To: saleman

Just need to get the right people working on a real solution.


21 posted on 05/01/2012 12:25:29 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves.)
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To: Daffynition

That picture was taken over the Sierra Nevada of California, just south west of the town of Big Pine. Boundary Peak 13,147’ (highest mountainin Nevada) and 14,282’ White Mountain Peak in California can be seen in the distance across the Owens Valley.


22 posted on 05/01/2012 12:42:48 PM PDT by Inyo-Mono (My greatest fear is that when I'm gone my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them)
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To: Osage Orange

Shhh! Don’t tell the Chinese that our “radar absorbing coating” is actually Duck tape!


23 posted on 05/01/2012 1:01:10 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: saleman

Makes you happy it’s one of ours. :)


24 posted on 05/01/2012 1:02:12 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Yep. That was probably 15 years ago. It gave me chills writing about it. Awsome is not too strong a word. I just couldn’t believe that something that big could accelerate that fast.


25 posted on 05/01/2012 1:12:39 PM PDT by saleman (!!!!)
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To: Inyo-Mono

Cool. Isn’t that near where Steve Fossett met his end?


26 posted on 05/01/2012 1:13:55 PM PDT by Daffynition (Our forefathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: Hot Tabasco

Geez...I hope not!


27 posted on 05/01/2012 1:16:16 PM PDT by Daffynition (Our forefathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: longtermmemmory
is someone pushing drones?

I think drones are a HUGE improvement over manned fighters. 1) A HUGE part of the cost of a manned plane is the systems to keep the man safe. 2) Downed pilots can be a great source of POWs for an enemy. 3) Performance limitations are generally based on what the human pilot can endure, not the airframe.

28 posted on 05/01/2012 1:17:13 PM PDT by Onelifetogive (I tweet, too... @Onelifetogive)
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To: Taxman
I trust SG's opinion in matters such as this.


29 posted on 05/01/2012 1:20:13 PM PDT by Daffynition (Our forefathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: saleman
Wild Bill, is that you? :)


30 posted on 05/01/2012 1:27:32 PM PDT by Daffynition (Our forefathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: Daffynition
Cool. Isn’t that near where Steve Fossett met his end?

Yes, Fossett crashed about 45 miles north of there in the Minerets near Mammoth Lakes Ski area on the eastern border of Yosemite Park.

31 posted on 05/01/2012 2:09:34 PM PDT by Inyo-Mono (My greatest fear is that when I'm gone my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them)
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To: Daffynition
Not a whole lot of info out there on how the onboard system works and why the F22 might be different.

This is the best I've found so far. It is from a F35 special interest forum http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-15547.html and is worth reading. Has a fair number of links also.

32 posted on 05/01/2012 3:07:11 PM PDT by dickmc
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To: RexBeach

Before you get excited, look who the story is by. There are other reasons why young pilots might not want to fly the F-22, such as the next major combat mission will be in them.


33 posted on 05/01/2012 4:01:48 PM PDT by maxwellsmart_agent
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To: RexBeach
F-22s in the UAE May Just Be There for an Exercise, Really [honest, maybe]
34 posted on 05/01/2012 4:53:46 PM PDT by Daffynition (Our forefathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: saganite
O system getting a redo
35 posted on 05/01/2012 5:17:31 PM PDT by Daffynition (Our forefathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: Daffynition

Hypoxia kills. No pilot would knowingly or willingly fly an aircraft with an unpredictable fault in the cockpit pressurization/O2 system.

Jeez — we have been sending folks into space for a long time now. Seems reasonable to me that a “Murphy” proof cockpit pressurization/O2 system is within reach?


36 posted on 05/01/2012 9:57:49 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Taxman
Seems that as of March, investigators were still puzzled about the problem.

I was thinking about Chinese made parts for the SNAFUs.

G-forces? This is like owning a Ferrari, but you aren't allowed to put it into 6th gear.:(

37 posted on 05/02/2012 12:56:51 AM PDT by Daffynition (Our forefathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: kosciusko51
Yesterday, it was how the F-35 is a terrible platform. Now, its the F-22. What the heck has happened to manned military aviation?

The F-35...I have a lot of doubts about it - I think they are trying to do too much with it and I think the costs are creeping far too high - we are truly headed towards the day we can buy only one plane, and the Air Force gets to fly it Monday-Wednesday, the Navy Thursday through Saturday, and the Marines on Sunday, but that's for another thread.

In general, the systems are getting more and more complex. I heard about this F-22 problem a while back through friends, but it was very hush-hush, and the AF was trying to work out the oxygen problems with some contractors without it getting out into the media. It was known within the AF community, but just not really public.

I'm very surprised that the AF would publicly admit it is having problems. I'm more surprised that it's still a problem at this point. While it's a very complex aircraft, they didn't exactly have to reinvent the oxygen/life support system. This is like the Army buying a $5 million vehicle and having tire problems a few years after it's in the field.

For those bashing the pilots, I don't think folks realize that for pilots to risk their careers over this, it must be pretty bad. If they ruin their careers over this, they can't just waltz into a cushy civilian job.
38 posted on 05/02/2012 1:13:18 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: maxwellsmart_agent
There are other reasons why young pilots might not want to fly the F-22, such as the next major combat mission will be in them.

You don't know what's going on, so I guess you automatically assume that you should bash the military. Nice.

Newsflash, they didn't join the AF and go through all of the training to become F-22 pilots only to decide it wasn't for them. Refusing to fly could potentially end their careers and lead to crappy careers in civilian life.

You've obviously never flown, but I'll give you the short summary: If a pilot encounters this problem, it doesn't matter whether they've been in 5 years or 20 years, it's a problem that kills all too easily. We've actually been very lucky so far not to loose more.

What bothers me most is that the AF grounded the F-22s last year because of an increase in incidents. I can't believe it's still a problem here in 2012. Like I said, they aren't exactly reinventing the wheel here.
39 posted on 05/02/2012 1:33:09 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: Taxman; Daffynition
Jeez — we have been sending folks into space for a long time now. Seems reasonable to me that a “Murphy” proof cockpit pressurization/O2 system is within reach?

Something weird is happening if they haven't been able to figure out the issue. It should not be that hard to debug the hardware, which makes me wonder about the software.

After all, we all remember back about 5 years ago, or maybe 6 years ago, when a group of F-22s flew across the date line and started having computer failures. I really wonder about the software. From what's been said publicly, they've looked at the whole system, top to bottom, looking for ways fumes could be introduced or oxygen restricted.

I'm surprised at how many times F-22s have been grounded for this issue over the past year.
40 posted on 05/02/2012 1:42:43 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: af_vet_rr; Daffynition

Anything I say would be pure speculation — I have no systems knowledge of the F-22, but the fact that “software” is involved in what used to be a relatively simple O2 system tells me that some smart engineer tried to develop an “improved” O2 system and that it was fielded before being fully tested.

HST, I am back to my original statement — cockpit pressurization/OS systems have been around for a long time, and, most of them work pretty well. The more complex a system is, the more likely that there will be multiple failures, and the more likely it will be very expensive to maintain.

The KISS principle ought to be more widely followed, IMHO.


41 posted on 05/02/2012 5:31:30 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Taxman
HST, I am back to my original statement — cockpit pressurization/OS systems have been around for a long time, and, most of them work pretty well. The more complex a system is, the more likely that there will be multiple failures, and the more likely it will be very expensive to maintain.

The KISS principle ought to be more widely followed, IMHO.


Several years ago, I followed some of the JSF competition pretty closely as I had a friend on one of the teams, and I remember seeing an interview where one of the executives bragged about how complex their entry was. Of course he would be happy - if they win, they'll be rolling in the money for years to come, not just in building, but in future maintenance costs. But I could imagine maintenance folks putting their faces in their hands.

Hell, Lockheed Martin is getting millions to help track down the oxygen problem with the F-22.
42 posted on 05/02/2012 7:15:34 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: af_vet_rr

You hit the nerve: KISS generally works against corporate profits.


43 posted on 05/02/2012 9:12:07 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Taxman

it isn’t the corporation that awards the contract


44 posted on 05/07/2012 8:20:37 PM PDT by superfries
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To: superfries

All Defense contractors have “Change Order” groups which work constantly to increase the value to the contractor of a particular contract by suggesting and implementing changes to the contract.

It is a time honored tradition in the defense industry to intentionally underbid a contract and then run the price up through change orders.

The KISS principle is mostly defunct in defense work these days — there is no money in it.


45 posted on 05/07/2012 10:11:29 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Taxman

Change orders and mission creep is a two way street.


46 posted on 05/08/2012 2:49:49 PM PDT by superfries
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To: superfries

That is certainly true, but change orders often are targeted to encourage mission creep.

There are other problems with government procurement — it is not only the Military that gets screwed — civilian agencies also suffer FRom the many “loopholes” in the system. And, of course, the ultimate screwee is the US Taxpayer!

HSAT, my experience was that the government contracting officers are generally very junior, and can be “out-ranked” by contractors and their own seniors into approving changes that are not necessary, except in the political sense.

Also, government contractors seem to have a high turnover in management, as do the Program offices. All this turnover inevitably leads to “better ideas” and more cost to the taxpayer and profits for the contractor.

In short, it is an insane system and it doesn’t work to anyone’s advantage, although the players will tell you different. They all are playing a “wink-wink” game, until the corruption and/or program cost really get out of hand.

And then, once the jig is up, it becomes a blame game. But no one really suffers too much, except the poor suffering taxpayer.

As you can tell, I am a disgruntled taxpayer who spent too much time in government contracting trying to weave a fine line between fiscal responsibility and conflicting contractual and performance demands.


47 posted on 05/08/2012 4:04:00 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Taxman

I agree with your assessment...obviously you are experienced in this area. I made similar comments on a previous JIEDDO program thread. It is us, the taxpayer who ends up paying the price.

So in your mind is the trend towards fixed price contracts vs cost plus not affecting change orders or mission creep? Wasn’t it designed to help mitigate change orders and mission creep? I am serious can you educate me on this? I’d love to hear your opinion.


48 posted on 05/08/2012 7:55:52 PM PDT by superfries
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To: superfries

I have been out of the business a long time, and the rules probably have changed.

HST, judging FRom the dustups in the most recent large military procurement programs, there is still a lot of wiggle room available for running the cost to the taxpayer and the profits to the contractors up.

Please understand me — men and women of good will work hard to do the right thing for competing interests — unfortunately, the poor suffering taxpayer does not have the best seat at the table.

Yes, fixed price contracts are one effort to gain control of cost runups, but the change order process still works as before.

What has to happen is that the aforementioned competing interests have to work together to ensure they all are treated fairly.

When I was in the business, I tried my best to be an honest broker between my company, the government and the taxpayer. That, my FRiend, is a tightrope walk!

Eventually, I got out because walking that tightrope became too difficult, and was not personally or professionally rewarding enough for me to stay there.

Parenthetically, you will note that the Congress and the public never hear about the contracts that worked as they were supposed to. Many do.


49 posted on 05/08/2012 9:46:36 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Taxman

Super explanation Taxman. I really appreciate you laying this out for me. Good stuff. And you are dead on....we never hear about the programs that stay on budget and the people that do good work on both sides of the equation.


50 posted on 05/08/2012 10:01:10 PM PDT by superfries
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