Thanks for the clarification. I had no idea. I don't listen to him, so I didn't know those details. Yes, his rhetoric, racist beliefs and tactics, are abhorrent.
... THAT SAID ... (and forgive me for hijacking this thread)
What level of “tyranny” are YOU (that is, ANY AMERICAN) willing to accept and tolerate from your government before YOU are willing to ACT beyond words?
Think hard, really HARD – NO, REALLY, REALLY HARD – on that question. Seriously — tonight, as you lay in bed ... think about it -- search your soul.
What's YOUR personal limit before you must take action, and can you put that in writing, as a binding promise to yourself and your family?
These questions are somewhat rhetorical, somewhat not...
As the Framers discovered (and many others before and after them), sometimes (and sadly) words and rhetoric only go so far. We may scream “NO” as loud as we want, but a corrupt and tyrannical political power, hell-bent on the destruction of its country and its Constitution, may not be willing to "hear" the words of The People. Those in power today (June 2009, in the USA) know they may not have the “chance for Change” for a LONG time after this swing of the political pendulum.
Many Americans, just 6 MONTHS AGO, acknowledged that if the SCOTUS and Congress did not intervene on Mr. Obama’s birth certificate issue, THE RULE OF LAW would be dead. But we’ve gotten use to it.
Many Americans, just 3 MONTHS AGO, watched in horror as the Congress and Executive signed every citizen and their children into slavery as part of the Stimulus Plan, spending money that doesn't exist which will simply be printed by the US Treasury. But we’ve gotten use to it.
Many Americans, just 1 MONTH AGO, felt we were slipping into a Marxist regime as we saw General Motors become "Government Motors", similar to the Bailouts that have taken place with the Banking Industry. But we’ve gotten use to it.
Many Americans, less than 1 WEEK AGO, were gobsmacked at how the Federal Court System (sans Justice Ginsburg) authorized the legalized theft of Chrysler ownership from secured debt-holders, ignoring long-standing Bankruptcy Laws. But we’ve gotten use to it.
Congress is seemingly alarmed at the concentration of decisions being made by the Auto Task Force. Not because they care how it’s, run per se – Congress just wants a piece of the action, too. Mr. Obama now has 21 Czars, all controlled by the Executive, with no Congressional or Judicial oversight. Again, Congress seems to care, but somehow is unwilling (and unable) to do a damn thing about it. But we’ve gotten use to that, too.
California runs out of money in less than 7 weeks, and will likely be extorted by the Federal government to give up much of its sovereignty for a Federal Bailout. The Executive is pushing hard for Socialized Medicine, and the voting majority of Congress is right along with him. And the U.S. Senate is proceeding at break-neck speed (remarkable for the deliberative Senate) to confirm a “wise Latino” to be a SCOTUS Justice. How long before we will have gotten use to all of that, too, and accept it as the new norm?
Have I missed anything? I’m sure I did, but you get the point. And we all know where we are headed, politically and economically if this continues.
And don’t wait for the media to bring it to your attention – they have their agenda too – and it lines up quite nicely with that of the current Executive, Legislative and (sadly) the Judiciary. The Fourth Branch of Government, the Federal Grand Jury, is trying to get some traction, but unfortunately seems to sputtering, and most likely would be ignored by the US Justice Department in any event.
Are we becoming a bit like the proverbial frog, sitting in a pot of cold water, barely noticing that we're being boiled alive – very slowly?
We have about 17 months (November 2010) before the proverbial pot has ANY chance of being taken off the proverbial stove top. The TEA PARTIES are a big step in the right direction -- THANK GOD and the Founders for the First Amendment rights of Free Speech, the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
BUT based upon our current rate of progression from the last 5 months – how do you think America will look in Nov 2010 (or Nov 2009 for that matter)? And do you think we’ll still be able to do anything about it?
I will state this again to those who may be monitoring – I AM NOT ADVOCATING VIOLENCE.
That said ... what we’re doing thus far JUST DOESN’T SEEM TO BE WORKING…. It may be in some quarters, but overall -- it's certainly not working fast enough to stop the onslaught.
As far as using the Second Amendment to leverage against tyranny … please read the ruling from the “DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER,” (http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf), when the SCOTUS (bravo for them) struck down the DC handgun ban last June.
I recommend starting at page 19 of the Opinion, at "Meaning of the Operative Clause". Here’s a snippet from page 26, regarding the Constitutional power of the Second Amendment, as discussed in November 1788:
It was understood across the political spectrum that the right helped to secure the ideal of a citizen militia, which might be necessary to oppose an oppressive military force if the constitutional order broke down.
The stinger is though, we no longer live in a Constitutional Republic! The Constitutional contract has been finally abrogated by the Roberts subpreme court refusing to uphold the meaning of the Constitution.
The dumbed-down entitlement-minded electorate promoted a fraud to the position of pres__ent without giving a damn whether he was Constitutionally qualified or even whether he was connected to the enemies of this nation in this ongoing war with Islamic terrorists!
Violence? Against whom would it be directed? ... The criminal affirmative action figure? Hardly, democrats admire criminal behavior that succeeds.
A surge of populace demanding something from the federal oligarchs? ... Even in my deepest fictional renderings, I cannot imagine a porcine populace actually giving a damn until they are the bacon destined for the frying pan. And then they would be hard-pressed to react to the heat, believing to the end that their masters wouldn't treat them so badly!
If you have a hard time grasping this stark assertion, consider how many alive black children have been aborted under the demcorat promoted and propelled defense of abortion on deamnd, in ordere to empower democrat political capital election after election. Yet the black vote is still more than 80% for any democrat over any Republican.
Are black people really that spiritually bankrupt? ... Thank God for a few like Pastor Manning and the 'macho' guy, for the Thomas Sowells and Jesse Petersons. Perhaps that is all that has kept us from final judgment, thus far.
MORE, MUCH MORE THAN A LITTLE FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
SOBERING POINTS.
RIOTS IN IRAN THE MSM ISN'T COVERING. COULD THIS HAPPEN IN THE US?
BP2, do not even come CLOSE to allowing yourself to be identified with this guy. Post your post anywhere but here. Hal Turner is a nazi, pure and simple, and nothing but. For anyone to simply identify him as a talk show host is misleading and fallacious in its sin of omission.
He does an internet hate show. Freedom of speech is one thing. What he has done on his off time is NOT simple hate speech.
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Harold Charles “Hal” Turner is an American white nationalist and white supremacist from North Bergen, New Jersey. He runs his program, The Hal Turner Show, as a webcast from his home once a week, and depends on donations from his listeners. He quit the show in July 2008 and resumed in April 2009. In August 2008 his website also closed down, though he retains a blog.
Turner promotes antisemitism (including the rounding up and killing of Jews)[1] and opposes the existence of the state of Israel.[2] He also denies the Holocaust.[3] In 2005, Turner organized what he billed as a “rally against violence” after a white student was beaten by a black student at a high school. In 2006, he got into a fight with Jaime Vazquez, a former Jersey City deputy mayor, after Vazquez called him a “racist coward”. Turner has made numerous threats against political figures on his website and in other forums.
Early career
Identifying himself as “Hal from North Bergen”, Turner became notable in American conservative circles as a frequent caller to WABC radio talk shows hosted by Bob Grant and Sean Hannity.[4] Turner parlayed this fame into a role as the northern New Jersey coordinator for Patrick J. Buchanan’s 1992 presidential campaign. He went on to serve as campaign manager for Libertarian Party candidate Murray Sabrin in New Jersey in the 1990s, including a 1997 gubernatorial campaign.[5]
Turner reportedly established a friendship with Sean Hannity, on whose program he was a frequent presence.[4] However, when confronted by the New Black Panther Party’s Malik Zulu Shabazz about his association with Turner (in light of Hannity’s scrutiny of Barack Obama’s association with Jeremiah Wright), Hannity at first denied knowing Turner, then said he had banned Turner from his radio station, and that he never supported Turner’s views. Turner subsequently posted this response on his website: “I was quite disappointed when Sean Hannity at first tried to say he didn’t know me. In fact, Sean does know me and we were quite friendly a few years ago.”[6][7]
Turner became a talk radio host, joining fellow regular callers Frank from Queens and John from Staten Island to start the program The Right Perspective. Turner left the program in 2002, citing artistic differences. In 2002, Turner became a solo host, purchasing a time slot on shortwave radio station WBCQ, over which he broadcast for approximately four years. He gave up this show on WBCQ on March 22, 2004 for a few reasons: financial support from the listening audience had faded,[8][9] the owner of the station Allan Weiner was Jewish, Turner had health problems,[10] and his personal financial condition was deteriorating. This led to the temporary closure of his website and show.
2000 Congressional election
In the 2000 US congress election, Turner sought, but did not receive, the Republican Party nomination for election to the United States Congress from New Jersey’s 13th congressional district, losing to Theresa de Leon.[11][12] Turner has identified himself as the “Chairman of the Republican Party of Hudson County, NJ Corp,” a group which has no connection to the official Hudson County Republican Party recognized by the state and national party. According to news reports, Hudson County Republican officials have stated that Turner’s party is a “paper corporation with little or no membership”.[13]
Rally against violence
In response to an October 7, 2005, assault against a white student by a black student at Kingston High School, Turner, working with the white nationalist group National Vanguard, organized a rally which he called a “rally against violence”.[14] The case resulted in the perpetrator being indicted as an adult with two felony counts: assault and attempted assault.[15][16] He characterized the rally both as “pro-white” and “against violence”.[17][18] The victim’s mother chose not to attend the rally.[17] In response, local residents, including political and religious leaders, organized a number of “Unity Rallies” with a tolerance theme.[19] When the rally occurred on November 19, 2005, Turner and the National Vanguard attracted approximately 50 demonstrators, compared to the 100 counter-demonstrators.[20]
Jaime Vazquez encounter
On April 12, 2006, Turner had a physical altercation with Jaime Vazquez, a former Jersey City Deputy Mayor and member of the Jersey City Council, who was the Jersey City Commissioner of Veterans Affairs at the time. The North Bergen Reporter quoted Turner as saying “(t)he illegal immigrants are breaking the law, and people like me should break the law as well by shooting them down.” In response, Vazquez picketed with a sign reading “Hal Turner — shoot me! Racists and bigots like you are cowards.”[21] Vazquez suffered a back injury and a fractured wrist. Turner and Vazquez later filed criminal charges against each other. On July 16, 2006 North Bergen Municipal Court Judge Joseph Romano found both men to be equally credible and thus neither criminally liable.[22]
Threats against judges and political figures
In 2005, Turner publicized the names of three federal court judges who handled lawsuits involving Matt Hale.[23] Turner posted the judges’ names and addresses on his Web site.[23][24]
On December 6, 2006, Turner announced on his website:
“We may have to ASSASSINATE some of the people you elect on Nov. 7! This could be your LAST ELECTION CHANCE, to save this Republic... Sorry to have to be so blunt, but the country is in mortal danger from our present government and our liberty is already near dead because of this government. If you are too stupid to turn things around with your vote, there are people out here like me who are willing to turn things around with guns, force and violence. We hope our method does not become necessary.”[25]
Since the announcement was made, Turner has had difficulties finding a host for his website. He alleged that his website has been the target of denial of service attacks, and subsequently filed a pro se lawsuit.[26][27][28]
On April 4, 2008, Turner encouraged violence against Lexington, Massachusetts school superintendent Paul Ash for establishing a new curriculum supporting gays and lesbians. On his website, he stated:
“I advocate parents using FORCE AND VIOLENCE against Superintendent Paul B. Ash as a method of defending the health and safety of school children presently being endangered through his politically-correct indoctrination into deadly, disease-ridden sodomite lifestyles.”[29]
He went on to provide Ash’s personal information, including his address.[29]
Anonymous website raid
According to Turner, in December 2006 and January 2007, individuals who identified themselves as Anonymous took Turner’s website offline, and cost him thousands of dollars in bandwidth bills. He retaliated by sending a “formal legal notice of criminal activity in violation of several federal laws” by email to 7chan, multacom, and multicom, as well as redirecting his domain to 420chan, causing that site to take a bandwidth hit as well.[30][31][32] He also sued 4chan, eBaum’s World, 7chan, and other websites in court over copyright infringement. He lost his plea for an injunction, however, and failed to receive letters from the court, which caused the lawsuit to lapse.[33]
Informant allegations
Allegations that Turner acts as an informant to the FBI surfaced after unidentified hackers claimed on Turner’s website’s forums that they had read email correspondence between him and an FBI agent, apparently his handler.[34] This led to a discussion on a neo-Nazi website on January 10, 2008, in which Turner revealed he was quitting political work, was ending his radio show and that he was separating “from the ‘pro-White’ movement”.[34] Both the FBI and Turner declined to comment on the matter.[34] The Southern Poverty Law Center later reported that they had “revealed... that Turner was an FBI informant”[35] and the Anti-Defamation League reported that “a neo-Nazi Website had posted material reportedly found by the hackers, including alleged exchanges between himself and law enforcement agents that indicated that Turner had been providing information to them.”[36]
Arrest
On June 3, 2009, Turner was arrested and charged with inciting injury to two politicians in Connecticut and a state ethics official.[37] The warrant issued was for inciting his website’s readers to “take up arms” against the officials.[38] He was arrested in New Jersey and is pending extradition to Connecticut
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And this is minor stuff compared to the massive amount of OTHER stuff he was involved in.
“A people unwilling to use extreme violent force deserves the tyrant that rules them.”
This quote doesn’t say use that force, but the elected leaders need to believe beyond a shadow of doubt that that violent force will be used if need be and further it will be used against them.
This fact in and of itself will deter tyrants. But until they understand this our people are helpless.
Thank you for taking the time to express so clearly what is concerning so many.
Returned for two years to my native California 10 years ago, after a 10 year absence, and was struck by how much it seemed special interests were moving the state to extremes.
That provided the basis for my Free Republic screen name. As you pointed out in your thread:
“Are we becoming a bit like the proverbial frog, sitting in a pot of cold water, barely noticing that we’re being boiled alive – very slowly?”
In the case of many of us, the fact we are aware we are in a pot of water is enough to insure we will be effective.
Our current Republican politicians appear to be ineffectual in stopping this move to socialism, and almost certainly beyond that; they clearly ignored their constitutional duty on January 8, 2009.
2010 will be an important politicial battle; the most important, perhaps, for some time.
“Government exists by the consent of the governed; however, if the governed are denied the right of self defense, those in power may exist in whatever form they choose.”