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Obama's eligibility issue: Why the British Citizenship argument is a red herring
The Greater Evil ^ | 06/27/09 | Polarik

Posted on 06/27/2009 6:13:50 AM PDT by Polarik

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To: cynwoody
The fact is, "natural born citizen" has never been defined by Congress or the courts.

That is correct. A Supreme Court ruling is needed. Regarding your questions about naturalized parents etc., please search for and read the thread titled "Obama's Presidential Eligibility - An Introductory Primer" written by Stephen Tonchen and posted by me. Please post your comments and questions about it on that thread.

51 posted on 06/27/2009 2:24:35 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Character, Leadership, and Loyalty matter - Be an example, no matter the cost.)
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To: PhiKapMom
The Senate certified McCain was eligible ...

The Senate passed a resolution expressing their opinion that McCain was eligible. They didn't certify anything because they don't have the authority to do so. Only the Supreme Court can interpet the meaning of natural born citizen as used in the Constitution.

52 posted on 06/27/2009 2:33:05 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Character, Leadership, and Loyalty matter - Be an example, no matter the cost.)
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To: BuckeyeTexan

Thanks! The article I read here said ceritifed. Appreciate you clearing that up.


53 posted on 06/27/2009 2:37:12 PM PDT by PhiKapMom (Mary Fallin for OK Governor/Coburn for Senate 2010 ! Mark Rubio for FL Senate 2010!)
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To: bgill
America's court system might just be her downfall.

The Alinsky-Cloward-Piven crowd is counting on that. Their methods have always been focused on overwhelming our system of rules by making it impossible to live by the standards we set.

54 posted on 06/27/2009 2:39:35 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Character, Leadership, and Loyalty matter - Be an example, no matter the cost.)
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To: real_patriotic_american

Pakistan was not on a U.S. no-travel list at that time. That claim has been debunked.

It was so easy for Americans to travel to Pakistan at that time that Pakistan was issuing 30-day visas at their airports.


55 posted on 06/27/2009 2:53:12 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Character, Leadership, and Loyalty matter - Be an example, no matter the cost.)
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To: BuckeyeTexan

I’m not offended by what Stephen said because he was wrong on the true nature of the COLB. Stephen was harping on one side of the issue because that’s what he chose to do. He was unaware of my research, it would seem.

Donofrio is another story entirely. He knows damn well what I’ve done and he’s purposely taking direct shots at me with his comments. People who know me know that I don’t take those attacks lying down.


56 posted on 06/27/2009 2:57:01 PM PDT by Polarik (Forgeries are forever!)
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To: Polarik

I was unware that Donofrio is taking pot shots at you. You can be sure that I have your back on that one. I’ll check out what he’s saying and make any necessary/appropriate corrections via comments on his blog.


57 posted on 06/27/2009 3:10:21 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Character, Leadership, and Loyalty matter - Be an example, no matter the cost.)
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To: BP2
Apology accepted.

However, I've never heard in the 18 years from their divorce until his death that Obama SR ever denied they were married. Nor did he deny Obama Jr was his son.

Fuuny, he denied being married to Kezia when he married Stanley Ann. Whoever allegedly provided them with a marriage license was also lied to about Obama's existing marriage. Bigamy was illegal at the time, and if there were any special rules at the time that did not consider African nationals already married to African brides as "legally married," I haven't found any yet.

Plus, I didn't realize that you knew more about Obama's father than Obama knew himself. Were you traveling around with Obama Sr. from divorce to death, 24/7, 365 days a year? You would have had to be to make that claim.

From WND:

In 1986, four years after his father's death, Obama went to Africa for the first time, to be confronted with the truth of his father's life and to meet half-brothers and half-sisters he never knew he had.

In Africa for the first time, Obama admits he was told the truth, perhaps for the first time in his life.

He recounts a conversation with Zeituni, his father's sister.

"Zeituni stopped walking and turned to me," Obama wrote in his autobiography. "'After your father went off to live with his American wife, Ruth … well, he would go to Kezia sometimes. You must understand that traditionally she was still his wife. It was during such a visit that Kezia became pregnant with Abo, the brother you haven't met. The thing was, Kezia also lived with another man briefly during this time. So when she became pregnant again, with Bernard, no one was sure who – ' Zeituni stopped, letting the thought finish itself."

58 posted on 06/27/2009 3:31:43 PM PDT by Polarik (Forgeries are forever!)
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To: BuckeyeTexan

When will we see Obama’s original birth certificate?


59 posted on 06/27/2009 3:34:24 PM PDT by real_patriotic_american
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To: Polarik

Obama is following right into line behind Clinton...

Bill Clinton, “I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.”

Barack Obama, “I was born in Hawaii.”

Re: “A liar? A fraud? A traitor? A usurper? A foreign national?

If the shoes fit.”


60 posted on 06/27/2009 3:48:31 PM PDT by real_patriotic_american
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To: real_patriotic_american

As soon as the whitehouse can convince some state in America to print one up.Maybe a state needs a little money from uncle sammy otherwise known as “CONARTIST”.


61 posted on 06/27/2009 4:05:12 PM PDT by taxtruth
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To: taxtruth; real_patriotic_american

bHo’s birth certificate was posted for sale on eBay last night.

eBay Auction #160345002984

Check out the recent items the Seller Bought ...

a book on Hit Men (a How-To Manual)

a book on Africa

several items of paper money (pesos)

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=colmado_naranja&ftab=AllFeedback


62 posted on 06/27/2009 4:27:26 PM PDT by LucyT (We lived in the best of times, in the best place, in all of human history. - Lucy T.)
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To: LucyT
Very interesting.I'm going thru all the auctions now.
63 posted on 06/27/2009 4:37:32 PM PDT by taxtruth
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To: taxtruth

It seems he likes nice shoes at a bargain basement price.Size 11.5.


64 posted on 06/27/2009 4:43:20 PM PDT by taxtruth
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To: taxtruth; real_patriotic_american

There are a couple of threads about the eBay sale of bHo’s Kenyan birth certificate. Here is one link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2280528/posts


65 posted on 06/27/2009 4:43:33 PM PDT by LucyT (We lived in the best of times, in the best place, in all of human history. - Lucy T.)
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To: taxtruth

Well, it fits Obama. He’s a Chicago thug politician you know.


66 posted on 06/27/2009 5:42:37 PM PDT by real_patriotic_american
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To: LucyT

Interesting. Verrrrrrrrrrrry interesting.

Excerpt: “In effect, Obama, by way of his Press Secretary, just admitted to committing felony document fraud as what is posted on the Internet is a forgery, a false government identification document in violation of Federal statutes.”


67 posted on 06/27/2009 5:52:04 PM PDT by real_patriotic_american
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To: real_patriotic_american; taxtruth

Here’s the other thread about eBay and the birth certificate.

Re: ‘Proof’ of Kenyan birth twice scrubbed by eBay

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2280932/posts


68 posted on 06/27/2009 6:31:37 PM PDT by LucyT (We lived in the best of times, in the best place, in all of human history. - Lucy T.)
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To: BP2
This would mean Barry lost his US citizenship when he attended Occidental as a Kenyan.

U.S. has no treaty on mutual recognition of dual citizenship with other countries. In the late XIX - early XX centuries. United States ratified a number of treaties on nationality (the so-called «contract Benkrofta», on behalf of a well-known am. Diplomat J. Benkrofta), but their goal was just the prevention of cases of dual nationality by automatic deprive a person of U.S. citizenship when adopting the State of nationality of the counterparty under the contract, and vice versa.

69 posted on 06/27/2009 8:53:59 PM PDT by Plummz (pro-constitution, anti-corruption)
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To: BP2

Was it a Kenyan marriage license missing?


70 posted on 06/27/2009 8:55:11 PM PDT by Plummz (pro-constitution, anti-corruption)
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To: BuckeyeTexan

Thanks, Buckeye.


71 posted on 06/27/2009 9:15:26 PM PDT by Polarik (Forgeries are forever!)
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To: Plummz

I haven’t seen the Hawaiiam marriage license between Dunham and OBama. It has not been released by Obama or by FOIA.

For who wojuld a Kenyan marriage license be?


72 posted on 06/27/2009 9:20:17 PM PDT by Polarik (Forgeries are forever!)
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To: Polarik

Maybe you haven’t seen the Hawaii marriage license because there ain’t one.


73 posted on 06/28/2009 10:18:27 AM PDT by Plummz (pro-constitution, anti-corruption)
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To: Polarik

Kudos to you Polarik for your tireless efforts.


74 posted on 06/28/2009 10:23:51 AM PDT by Frantzie (Boycott ABC News and their parent company The Walt Disney Company)
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To: BuckeyeTexan; null and void; Beckwith; stockpirate; PhilDragoo; Candor7; MeekOneGOP; Myrddin; ...
Thanks all for your forbearance on my particular slant, i.e., a movement to get state legislatures to require their state's electors to demand documentary proof of eligibility.

My enthusiasm for this solution is based on legal advice and opinion. However, I do not wish it to appear that I am in opposition to other modes of seeking resolution to this problem. I am not. It is simply impossible to understand them all, because, despite the simple and clear words of the Constitution, this is a very complex problem and has never been satisfactorily addressed in the history of the Republic.

Suffice it to say, we all know the answer. The hard part is "Where do we ask the friggin' questions with the force of law behind us and require the man and his supporters to honestly answer? How do we apply the penalty? The Vice President is a party to the deception. Does he become President, if the Presdient is removed?"

Come Hell or high water, I do not believe that Obama will be the Democratic candidate in 2012. That however, is a very unsatisfactory solution to this Constitutional crisis.

75 posted on 06/28/2009 8:10:29 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk (What's with the Birth Certificate Fuss? Hitler was a foreigner. So was Stalin.)
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To: Plummz

That’s what I think.


76 posted on 06/28/2009 8:39:59 PM PDT by Polarik (Forgeries are forever!)
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To: BP2
From the beginning, Donofrio has felt that Obama would NOT hide behind a VALID birth certificate that would repudiate him — unless it REALLY exists. Obama, when forced, would pop up with the Long Form, in his big “ah-ha!” moment that would back HIS claim and DESTROY ALL “birther” claims.

That was supposed to be Obama's surprise. TRolls continue to talk about it, but after spending $1 million to quash the eligibiligy lawsuits, the "Ah-ah" is more of an "Oh-sh*t" as he wold love for these to go away. But, forgeries are forever. He will get nailed on it.

77 posted on 06/28/2009 8:46:51 PM PDT by Polarik (Forgeries are forever!)
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To: BuckeyeTexan; Polarik
It occurs to me that as we press forward in debate along multiple points of law, that Team Obama has prepared a defense in depth for each of the points debated on this thread.

That, IMHO, is where the well-documented "millions in legal fees" have gone, not in defending the many lawsuits, all of which to date, seem to have rather quickly foundered on the rock of "no standing," after disappointingly brief and even cursory hearings in state courts, and also on appeal. And of course as we know, SCOTUS showed little interest in taking up the fight on the grounds, I think, that it is a state and congressional matter.

Besides the obviously ongoing legal research conducted by Team Obama, there is a massive PR campaign underway to conflate the forged COLB and the missing "long form" Birth Certificate. This effort has succeeded beyond Team Obama's wildest dreams, with even the President's Press Secretary publicly telling the lie.

Don't you think it is high time that a Republican Congressman found the time to publicly refute this damnable lie for the Congressional Record?

Not that I am suggesting Dirty Jim as a role model, but Jim Traficant (ex-D. Ohio and now a guest of the Federal DoC) at least had the cojones to publicly take on Bill and Hillary?

We must have one guy who doesn't have serious federal time hanging over him who is as tough as Traficant!

Now, Michelle Obama is carefully floating yet another trial balloon on the possibility of Obama's birth out of wedlock, and there is indeed case law that seems to support the automatic citizenship of a bastard born to an American mother by a foreign father! (Whether this would qualify the bastard as "natural born," or not, who the Hell knows?)

Of course, the one area in which Team Obama has no defense is in the matter of the phony facsimile COLB posted on the web. It is. And they did it. But, and is a big legal BUT, can this outrageously fraudulent document be shown to a State Attorney General as having actually been presented as proof of eligibility to his state's electors? Why isn't that necessary? To the best of anyone's knowledge, was there a state in which Presidential Candidate Obama formally did that? Or, is this just a (my state's Attorney General) legal excuse for doing nothing?

Has anyone tried to get a state's Attorney General to take up the case (and the cause)? As we wrangle amongst ourselves to Obama's probable merriment and benefit, it again occurs to me that what we need is a leader of national stature to ramrod the effort, with working groups pursuing each possible remedy. On another thread, I had suggested Haley Barbour, but no one seemed to think much of the idea, but a Republican State Governor would be ideal, particularly if he had the benefit of Republican majorities in his legislature, or a tough Attorney General spoiling for a fight.

The GOP is looking forward to a big comeback in 2010, but no one it seems is willing to take on Obama and say what needs to be said, and in the case of the forgery, do what needs to be done. Obama out before 2012? I'm in, tell me what to do.

78 posted on 06/29/2009 2:28:27 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk (What's with the Birth Certificate Fuss? Hitler was a foreigner. So was Stalin.)
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To: Kenny Bunk; null and void; Beckwith; stockpirate; PhilDragoo; Candor7; MeekOneGOP; Myrddin; ...
Has anyone tried to get a state's Attorney General to take up the case (and the cause)?

Yes I have, but only the first 50: I still have another seven to go.

79 posted on 06/29/2009 8:29:36 PM PDT by Polarik (Forgeries are forever!)
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To: Polarik
.....but only the first 50: I still have another seven to go.....

I heard it through the grapevine ......those 7 remaining Attorneys General are definitely in the Obama column. In fact, they probably have Birth Certificates ... with pictures ... ready to go.

BTW, whom do you like as a leader the national effort to get these issues on the table ... or at least on the news? Our team is OK, but we need a coach and quarterback.

80 posted on 06/30/2009 8:48:14 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk (What's with the Birth Certificate Fuss? Hitler was a foreigner. So was Stalin.)
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To: Polarik
If BHO Sr, and Stanley Ann Dunham were never married, then it would not matter where he was born, he would have been a US citizen at birth, under the laws in effect at the time. Would he have been a natural born citizen if not born in the US? Probably not, but that would leave us in the same position as we'd be if we ignore the place of birth and they were married, that is the definition of "natural born".

With the birth certificate, and if his parents were married and if he was born outside the US, then he was not a citizn at birth at all, let alone a natural born one.

81 posted on 06/30/2009 9:28:58 AM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: grey_whiskers
If he has no citizenship at all, he cannot be a natural-born US citizen.

Under US law at the time, if his parents were not married, then he was a US citizen at birth. It's only if they were married, and their divorce papers say they were, and he was born outside the US, Kenya or Canada it doesn't matter, then he was not a citizen at birth at all, and would only be a citizen now if he was later naturalized. But if he was naturalized, or not a citizen, then he's not eligible.

82 posted on 06/30/2009 9:31:56 AM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato

US citizen, if born in Hawaii, but still not a “Natural-born” citizen.

If born in Kenya, then No, he would not be a US citizen at birth.

If they were married, then he’s not a “natural-born citizen” due to dual citizenship.

Either way you slice it, he still comes up empty.

But, the place of birth is irrelevant to the felony document fraud.


83 posted on 06/30/2009 9:36:16 AM PDT by Polarik (Forgeries are forever!)
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To: BP2
Furthermore, the courts must abide by THIS:

Not if the document is a forgery and/or altered.

84 posted on 06/30/2009 9:36:47 AM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Kenny Bunk

Anyone who says, “I’ll do it.”


85 posted on 06/30/2009 9:37:13 AM PDT by Polarik (Forgeries are forever!)
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To: Kenny Bunk
Born in Kenya. BHO, Jr. counters with "Yabut they weren't married, so I'm the son a of a single American citizen woman, and therefore constitutionally eligible?"

Well, maybe. Citizen for sure, under the law at the time, (and today as well if had been born under current law). But, Natural Born Citizen within the meaning and intent of the Art. II clause in the Constitution?

Congress can define who is eligible to be naturalized, as that is the only power over citizenship granted to them, they cannot redefine "natural born citizen", for purposes of the Constitution, anymore than they can define "speech", "religion", or "arms".

86 posted on 06/30/2009 9:46:37 AM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: cynwoody
The fact is, "natural born citizen" has never been defined by Congress or the courts. Therefore, one must assume it means "citizen at birth",

No, we need not, and should not. Congres has no power to define Constitutional terms. They mean what they meant when the document was written.

But logically anyone whose citizenship rests on a law passed by Congress, except insofar as that law is duplicative of the definition at the time the Constitution was written, cannot be "natural born", because Congress only has the power to "Establish an Uniform Rule of Naturalization".

We can't have Congress redefining the terms in the Constitution, unless that document explicitly gives them the power to do so, otherwise much mischief could they make.

87 posted on 06/30/2009 9:55:56 AM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: real_patriotic_american
When will we see Obama’s original birth certificate?

When a cold wind blows from the depths of Hell.

Or possibly when the vault is blown open by a North Korean Nuke.

88 posted on 06/30/2009 10:00:39 AM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Repeal The 17th
“...his mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, and his father, Barack Hussein Obama Sr., WERE NEVER MARRIED...”

So why did they get divorced?

89 posted on 06/30/2009 10:06:18 AM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: Polarik
But, the place of birth is irrelevant to the felony document fraud.

Indeed. But is Fraud a high crime or misdomeaner. Clearly if he was a Republican, it would rise to that level. But he's a 'Rat, with the 'Rats in control of Congress. He'd never even be impeached, let alone convicted and removed.

If born in Kenya, then No, he would not be a US citizen at birth.

If born outside the US, to an unwed mother, then under the law, he'd be a citizen at birth. The residence requirement for a US parent only applies to married parents. For bastards, the mother only need be a citizen of the US. But that's for "citizen at birth. Not necessarily "natural born".

But he didn't forge the CoLB out of embarassment that his parents were not married. Heck that would have given him more street cred in some circles, and more sympathy in others. It's only worth the effort, and the risk, if a real CoLB, or the Long Form Certificate of Live Birth indicates an ineligibility. IMHO only of course.

90 posted on 06/30/2009 10:10:40 AM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato
Gato, we are chasing our tails. No one, unfortunately, has chiseled out in marble exactly what the hell a "natural born citizen" actually is.

Looking at all the possibilities of a definition leaves us with the gut feeling that this guy ain't. But he's got a legal team for every angle, and his PR campaign is trailing smoke like a line of WWII destroyers, so our shooting is very difficult, and the lawsuit torpedoes we have launched at the SOB have so far been legally way off target.

IMHO, as I have expressed to the occasional derision of us Freepers, we have to back-track and create the state laws that will demand documentary evidence of eligibility. Then at least someone will have the "standing" to sue.

In the meantime, we've got a clear case of forgery on our hands,too, but are having a hard time even getting that to court.

The left has a fervent belief in the Hegelian Dialectic as improved by one K. Marx. "Created Chaos," is an ideal they seek so that they, the creators, are the only ones who can bring a resolution forward. This is driving everyone crazy, because that is exactly what it is intended to do while Obama and his cronies abuse the power given to them in the last election, whether they stood for election fraudulently, or not.

91 posted on 06/30/2009 10:11:39 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk (What's with the Birth Certificate Fuss? Hitler was a foreigner. So was Stalin.)
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To: Kenny Bunk
IMHO, as I have expressed to the occasional derision of us Freepers, we have to back-track and create the state laws that will demand documentary evidence of eligibility. Then at least someone will have the "standing" to sue.

I agree that needs to be done, either at the state or federal level. Both would be best. Belt and suspenders sort of deal.

But meanwhile, we are stuck with an ineligible occupant, a usurper, who has changed so much in only five months, that I fear after 48 months will have done so much damage, that there would be little to no hope of recovery by normal "legal" means.

92 posted on 06/30/2009 10:28:40 AM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato
But he didn't forge the CoLB out of embarassment that his parents were not married. Heck that would have given him more street cred in some circles, and more sympathy in other

Which is exactly what I said would happen if the dual citizenship issue is pursued to its logical conclusion, with Obama breaking the news that his parents were not married, and therefore, tossing in the crapper, the automatic citizenship arguments for both countries!

93 posted on 06/30/2009 1:31:47 PM PDT by Polarik (Mom: You were right! The world IS run by a secret, international cabal.)
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To: Polarik; El Gato
.....But meanwhile, we are stuck with an ineligible occupant.....

We just cannot prove if this guy is ineligible or not. There certainly is a very rational basis to think that he is. However, we definitely do know that forgery has taken place; that a fraud has been perpetrated.

At the risk of boring you guys to death, I repeat that our opinions, theories, and unearthed facts on this sordid and dangerous affair need coordination from on high ... a leader. How about Ambassador Bolton?

94 posted on 07/01/2009 5:49:04 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk (What's with the Birth Certificate Fuss? Hitler was a foreigner. So was Stalin.)
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