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Alinsky VS Paine (Intro)
Rules for Radicals | 1/25/10

Posted on 01/25/2010 6:55:59 AM PST by eeevil conservative

The purpose of these writings is quite simple. We wanted to provide an easy to use tool in understanding Alinsky’s teachings, the tactics used by his followers, their motives, and the contrast of these to the spirit of America and her forefathers. Alinsky’s goal was revolution, just as our forefathers; but the outcome of each revolution are as different as freedom vs slavery.

No one can begin the study of Rules for Radicals without noting that Alinsky includes a quote from Thomas Paine and one from himself at the onset.

Paine quote:

“Lest them call me rebel and welcome, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul….”

Alinsky quote:

“Lest we forge at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgement to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins- or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom—Lucifer.”

Alinsky makes it clear with his quote from Paine, that his soul is invested in this revolution; hence calling him a name, like “rebel,” does not concern him. Yet he uses Paine of all people to establish this. I submit he used Paine as some way to not just legitimize himself, but to portray him as noble in his own eyes as well to others. I also conclude that he uses Lucifer as an example of a rebel, the first one to set the record straight that even calling him Satan himself will not dissuade him, he is committed. He wants his followers to be just as committed. He also establishes with his quote about Lucifer that the prize or goal for this deep dedication is one’s own “kingdom.” I’d also like to note that it is quite cute that he compares history to legends and mythology and challenges that no one really knows that there is any difference between them. As we continue this study, you will notice that he uses this technique quite often. He takes legitimate things, and mixes them among “evils” in an attempt to subliminally make them equal.

In the first paragraph of his prologue he attempts to establish that the “system” is flawed, everyone knows it, and the people cry out to “burn it down.” In the second paragraph he claims that the radicals of his generation are the vanguard, and few of them survived the “Joe McCarty holocaust of the early 1950’s” and even fewer gained an insight “beyond the “dialectical materialism of orthodox Marxism.” Alinsky wastes not time making very clear his motivation and his end game objective; Marxism.

The third paragraph begins with this:

“Today’s generation is desperately trying to make some sense out of their lives and out of the world. Most of them are products of the middle class. They have rejected their materialistic backgrounds, the goal of a well-paid job, suburban home, automobile, country club membership, first class travel, status, security, and everything that meant success to their parents. They have had it, they watched it lead their parents to tranquilizers, alcohol, long-term-endurance marriages, or divorces, high blood pressure, ulcers, frustration, and the disillusionment of “the good life.”

Note that he combines country club membership, first class travel, and status, with a well-paid job, suburban home, automobile, and security; while labeling them all as materialistic. I have yet to find a youngster who does not long for the freedom of the use of or for the possession of their own car. He is suggesting that a poor paying dead-end job, an inner city shack, dependence upon public transportation (government run and subsidized transportation, by the way), and lack of security should be the goals of true radicals? What kind of world or future is that? You see, security and personal property are evil and materialistic. Having nothing to live for is noble and makes you sincere and worthy to be his foot soldier. He believes the youth have rejected these sins of their parents. He wants his followers, his fellow radicals, to have NOTHING that would interfere with what he wants from them. He wants them to have nothing to lose, so there is no action or deed with too big a price for them to take.

We are only 2 and a half paragraphs into the prologue folks, but I think this is enough for today. I want to keep these short so that busy folks can keep up without giving up too much time with their families, etc.

Please feel free to share your thoughts on anything I have written above or to add your own insights.

Open mike time!


TOPICS: Books/Literature; Government; History; Politics
KEYWORDS: alinsky; avsp; bho44; democrats; liberalfascism; obama; paine
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 01/25/2010 6:55:59 AM PST by eeevil conservative
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To: eeevil conservative; paulycy; gunnyg; ConjunctionJunction; Kerretarded; edpc; EBH; geologist; ...

Ping!

I hope this is useful, offers some insight and sparks some good dialogue....

I am open to any suggestions to make these threads more helpful if there is more I can do to make it better...

Thanks

ec

and as always- let me know if you want to be added to the ping list...best to FREEPmail me in case I miss any posts in the threads....


2 posted on 01/25/2010 6:59:14 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: eeevil conservative

Only my opinion but you would have made a better choice in juxtaposing Alinsky to Thomas Jefferson.


3 posted on 01/25/2010 7:04:21 AM PST by jla
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To: eeevil conservative

BUMP

Thanks.


4 posted on 01/25/2010 7:05:37 AM PST by paulycy (Demand Constitutionality.)
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To: jla; Kerretarded

that is a great idea....

Kerretarded had the idea of juxting....and he offered Paine...he also offered to do the work..

if you would like to offer juxting with Thomas Jefferson, and do that, I think that would be AWESOME!

I truly want this to be as useful to folks as we can....


5 posted on 01/25/2010 7:08:24 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: eeevil conservative

Just reading that makes me think about Russia and its problems with alcoholism, even while under communism.


6 posted on 01/25/2010 7:09:24 AM PST by ConjunctionJunction (Never give up! Never surrender!)
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To: eeevil conservative
I submit he used Paine as some way to not just legitimize himself, but to portray him as noble in his own eyes as well to others.

Paine was a Jacobin. A real dirtbag. When Morris was trying to free Americans in France, Paine was over there working a deal with the revolutionary mob to steal Spanish property.

Alinsky used Paine because his target audience knows exactly how debased and evil Paine was.

7 posted on 01/25/2010 7:09:55 AM PST by Brugmansian
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To: Brugmansian

WOW— Fantastic!

thanks for sharing that info...I for one, had no clue! I hope you continue to offer your insights...

thanks!


8 posted on 01/25/2010 7:11:26 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: eeevil conservative
Note that he combines country club membership, first class travel, and status, with a well-paid job, suburban home, automobile, and security; while labeling them all as materialistic.

Obama is violating that principle, with his lavish lifestyle. His recent vacation in Hawaii cost a fortune.

9 posted on 01/25/2010 7:13:36 AM PST by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: eeevil conservative
...to have NOTHING that would interfere with what he wants from them. He wants them to have nothing to lose, so there is no action or deed with too big a price for them to take.

Interesting that folks like him and other "leaders" of that philosophy expects that of their followers, but refuse to be held to the same standard. They become the very ones they rail against.History has proved that time and time again.

Thanks for undertaking this project. I'll be checking back frequently!

10 posted on 01/25/2010 7:15:07 AM PST by ozark hilljilly (Persecute terrorists, not small business.)
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To: eeevil conservative

Bookmark!


11 posted on 01/25/2010 7:15:26 AM PST by MNJohnnie ("The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples' money" Lady Thatcher)
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To: eeevil conservative

Figured it might spark some interest in your thread

:-)

There is a reason Bill Moyers son named his website after Tom Paine. Liberals love Paine. Anti-Christian bigot. Jacobin. Franklin told Paine to burn his “Age of Reason” rather than publish it.

But he was a great propagandist. Thankfully Adams and others ditched him after using him. Jefferson did invite him to the White House. It caused a scandal. Paine slunk off to die alone and bitter in his Fairfield, Connecticut farmhouse.


12 posted on 01/25/2010 7:19:15 AM PST by Brugmansian
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To: eeevil conservative

Looks great so far.

Please add me to your ping list.


13 posted on 01/25/2010 7:26:16 AM PST by Gvl_M3
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

of course— and he can- he is not part of the “followers”— he is a leader—

I have his first book also....

Reveille for Radicals....

Chapter 4 “The Program” literally says this:

“It is not a democratic program but a monumental testament to the lack of faith in the ability and intelligence of the masses of people to think their way through to the successful solution of their problems.”

He is explaining that the program for organizing people that you are creating is a dictatorship....very few people in charge running it...play on the people being dumb, etc....


14 posted on 01/25/2010 7:28:45 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: ozark hilljilly

I have his first book also....

Reveille for Radicals....

Chapter 4 “The Program” literally says this:

“It is not a democratic program but a monumental testament to the lack of faith in the ability and intelligence of the masses of people to think their way through to the successful solution of their problems.”

He is explaining that the program for organizing people that you are creating is a dictatorship....very few people in charge running it...play on the people being dumb, etc....


15 posted on 01/25/2010 7:29:29 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: Brugmansian

Thanks!

this should be an awesome project with folks like you and other FREEPers here to add so much...


16 posted on 01/25/2010 7:30:36 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: Gvl_M3

thx..

you have been added...


17 posted on 01/25/2010 7:31:38 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: eeevil conservative

OMG...just wow.


18 posted on 01/25/2010 7:36:24 AM PST by ozark hilljilly (Persecute terrorists, not small business.)
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To: leftyontheright

bookmark


19 posted on 01/25/2010 8:12:05 AM PST by leftyontheright
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To: eeevil conservative
This is wonderful work. Thank you.

Please add me to your list.

Thanks,

TS

20 posted on 01/25/2010 8:17:05 AM PST by The Shrew (www.wintersoldier.com; www.tstrs.com; The Truth Shall Set You Free!)
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To: The Shrew

thank you TS!

you have been added!


21 posted on 01/25/2010 8:18:55 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: eeevil conservative
“Lest we forge at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgement to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins- or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom—Lucifer.”

The most in depth writing regarding who this first rebel is comes from two books of the Bible. Ezekiel 28:12-19 and Isaiah 14:12-32. Now I do realize that it will be considered politically incorrect to bring forth the Bible by some in this discussion, but without the foundation of knowing who Lucifer was at his creation and then why he rebelled, one cannot fully comprehend what Alinsky is 'preaching'.

Another book that gave to me a better comprehension about the minds of rulers after the rebellion has been successful was written by Whittaker Chambers, called Witness. Mr. Chambers sums up the world of that other way in the foreword in his book to his children. Following is a link to the foreword for those who have not read the book.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/hiss/chambersletter.html

22 posted on 01/25/2010 8:20:11 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/hiss/chambersletter.html


23 posted on 01/25/2010 8:20:28 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts

AWESOME! Thanks for adding this!!


24 posted on 01/25/2010 8:23:57 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: eeevil conservative

Thank you. Already feeling more informed.


25 posted on 01/25/2010 8:31:44 AM PST by daisy mae for the usa
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To: daisy mae for the usa

GOOD to hear! and thanks...it means a lot to have feedback that folks find this work helpful.....the info added in the thread by other FREEPers is just as important as well...

I pray that God blesses this project...


26 posted on 01/25/2010 8:34:43 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: eeevil conservative
I'm creating an off site archive that links back to the original threads. As we add threads, this will allow interested Freepers to review the previous threads without making a huge post of links that takes up several feet of space. All that's on it now is this intro, but hopefully it will grow quite a bit over the next little while:

The Alinsky vs. Paine Archive.

Also, by linking off site, if someone stumbles upon an old thread, the link will always be up to date.

27 posted on 01/25/2010 8:44:13 AM PST by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: eeevil conservative

please add me to the list...thanks


28 posted on 01/25/2010 8:48:51 AM PST by goodnesswins (Become a Precinct Committee Person/Officer....in the GOP...or do NOT complain.)
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To: eeevil conservative

Interesting. Thoughtful. Inciteful.
You could never qualify to teach in public schools, could you? You are far above their pay grade.

Please add me to your list so I don’t miss a lesson.
Thanks


29 posted on 01/25/2010 8:50:32 AM PST by gnickgnack2 (QUESTION obama's AUTHORITY)
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To: eeevil conservative
That's quite a stark contrast and very well drawn. Alinsky makes an appeal to Lucifer; Paine denounces the devil.

It's also a great point that Alinsky seeks to beggar his supporters. He appealed to a generation that had never felt the true want of hunger and homelessness by convincing them that there was something disdainful about having something to eat and somewhere to sleep.

I remember an episode of MASH where Alan Alda makes the same appeal, saying the American dream was to die of a coronary at your desk while planning to stab your boss in the back. Oddly enough, I knew a girl who was adopted as an orphan out of Korea, and she dealt with great guilt that she was living such an opulent life when she spent the first part of it living in an overhang without walls and eating food cooked over an open fire.

30 posted on 01/25/2010 8:56:30 AM PST by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: Richard Kimball

WOW!!!

That is AWESOME!!

Thanks so very much!!

YOU ROCK!!


31 posted on 01/25/2010 8:57:07 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: eeevil conservative

No problem. This is one of the most important ideological battles going on in the US.


32 posted on 01/25/2010 9:04:24 AM PST by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: gnickgnack2

LOL!!

the gals in the office at my girls’ school shake when I come in.....the teachers actually like me...they let me come in and “teach” the kids a few things to give them a break and keep the kids learning at the same time...funny— the teachers often tell me that they learn a lot from my visits as well...

I am no professor.. I just like to learn and share what I learn....I am nerd...it is fun to me...I am just a stay at home mom with a real geek syndrome...

I visit colleges too sometimes....the kids are much more fun than the college students...the college students get mad that they have been taught lies...and it usually takes about 5 minutes to get their arms uncrossed and that lemon sucking look off their faces....LOL!


33 posted on 01/25/2010 9:05:26 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: call meVeronica

bump for later


34 posted on 01/25/2010 9:06:23 AM PST by call meVeronica
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To: Just mythoughts

again— I just cannot thank you enough— this is just AWESOME!

I am greatly humbled by you providing this....

Thanks again!


35 posted on 01/25/2010 9:06:27 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: eeevil conservative
positive - negative
good bad
worker- parasite
producer destructor
build up - tear down

It positively eludes me how destruction of (self worth, dreams, hopes, enjoyment of family, survival of an civilized society) being committed to a worthy life ...

versus

To oppress, kill, demean, possess, control, lie, cheat, instill pain,steal, murder, dispossess, starve, ... are indeed all the work of Satan and ... how is it desirable?

It truly astounds me that this can sound and deliver anything to anyone that is worth dying to obtain.

It is ugly loathsome, a type of suicide.

36 posted on 01/25/2010 9:09:13 AM PST by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: Richard Kimball

wow-— thanks for sharing that...

really makes us think.....


37 posted on 01/25/2010 9:15:30 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: geologist

well put!


38 posted on 01/25/2010 9:16:04 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: eeevil conservative

Paine desired for the redistribution of wealth. Similar to Alinsky that is why both his books Reveille for Radicals (1946) and Rules for Radicals (1971) are including Thomas Paine.


39 posted on 01/25/2010 9:17:39 AM PST by hondact200 (hondact200 No to Socialism - Michigan Destroyed by Socialist Democrats..)
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To: hondact200; All

yeah— learning that....

figures....

Kerretarded offered the idea of juxting Paine and offered to do the work and writings....wondering if just Alinsky VS America wouldn’t be better, and Kerretarded could use writings of any of our founding fathers, etc as comparitive works....

Will be talking to him later— we will see what we can do to make this better...

Kerretarded is also crunched for time...so we might just have me write on Alinsky and then have him or others sumbit juxting writings to be posted on Fridays as the wrap up...

I welcome any thoughts on this...


40 posted on 01/25/2010 9:24:57 AM PST by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: eeevil conservative; All
SOME writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections, the latter negatively by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher.

Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer! Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built on the ruins of the bowers of paradise. For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform, and irresistibly obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver; but that not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his property to furnish means for the protection of the rest; and this he is induced to do by the same prudence which in every other case advises him out of two evils to choose the least. Wherefore, security being the true design and end of government, it unanswerably follows that whatever form thereof appears most likely to ensure it to us, with the least expense and greatest benefit, is preferable to all others.


Thomas Paine broke Common Sense into four main sections. He first delves into the beginnings of Government in the first section titled "OF THE ORIGIN AND DESIGN OF GOVERNMENT IN GENERAL. WITH CONCISE REMARKS ON THE ENGLISH CONSTITUTION". Above are the first two paragraphs from this first section.

In these opening paragraphs, you get an immediate sense of his feelings for Government. He also spells out the reason why Government is needed. That reason is because evil exists. This evil causes good men to give up a little bit of society for security. He goes on to state that, because Government is a necessary evil, it should be contructed simple enough so that if it needs to be modified, it can be done easily.

This opening section is truly important as it explains how the English Government, and hence all Governments, can morph with time into complex monsters if the structure of such Government is not given strict boundaries from the beginning.
41 posted on 01/25/2010 9:47:57 AM PST by Eagle of Liberty (This nation must not die on our watch.)
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To: eeevil conservative

Great Community Service project you have going there!

And I doubt it’s a LEMON-sucking that’s going through their minds!

Thanks for all you do.


42 posted on 01/25/2010 9:49:43 AM PST by gnickgnack2 (QUESTION obama's AUTHORITY)
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To: eeevil conservative

the pamphlet that Thomas Paine Agrarian Justice was originally written in French and translated to english. The elitists in the day of Paine, Franklin, jefferson wrote in French the international language. The Agrarian Justice is available at the Social security Online History. just thought everyone would like to know that at the social security administration Thomas Paine is recognized the right of the disabled to receive health care. Please do keep in mind that Saul Alinsky is basing many of his premises about Community Organization that came out of European Intellectual Thought. He utilizes Alexis Toqueville Democracy in America. This thought came about by the French Intellectual Movement. Here is where we may see that Obamas education at the supposed Occidential, Columbia Universities may be actually fronts for his education in Paris through exchange programs. he could take classes abroad but still be considered at student at Occiedentail and Columbia. He could attend internationally at the prices he paid in the states or was paid by some one else. I remember the coursework I took in college on American and European Intellectual History and I had the opportunities to study abroad but never did. Please do not misunderstand I do not make myself out to be an intellectual, but in order to have studies in american and european history and many many the prerequisites for seminary in a state school allowed for the coursework in some rather mind blowing elitist attitudes. Interesting that much of Obama screams are coming from the intellectual movement that spread through Europe, In France shortly thereafter the French Revolution that entailed and many of these same intellectuals literally lost their heads on the guillotine. In the vaccuum Napoleon rose to power and it ended in disaster and Napoleon was exiled to the Island of Elba where he succumbed to aresnic poisoning, when his body was exhumed he was perfectly preserved like he died the day before being exhumed.


43 posted on 01/25/2010 9:51:47 AM PST by hondact200 (hondact200 No to Socialism - Michigan Destroyed by Socialist Democrats..)
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To: Just mythoughts

I just finished reading your link—cried like a baby. Please continue to bring these insights to this conversation! Our children are historically unprepared for our country’s current crisis. Thank you for sharing.


44 posted on 01/25/2010 9:56:40 AM PST by daisy mae for the usa
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To: Richard Kimball
It's also a great point that Alinsky seeks to beggar his supporters. He appealed to a generation that had never felt the true want of hunger and homelessness by convincing them that there was something disdainful about having something to eat and somewhere to sleep.

Probably a little off-color, but my wife and I were watching a news report over the weekend from a reporter in Haiti and in the report she said that beans and rice have finally made it to the island. She tried to offer an energy bar to a child and he refused to eat it. He instead waited until the beans and rice arrived. I then looked at my wife and said, "Well, I guess the starving may have actually turned down those cabbage rolls that my parents made me eat when I was a kid."
45 posted on 01/25/2010 10:02:29 AM PST by Eagle of Liberty (This nation must not die on our watch.)
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To: hondact200

I still believe that Paine’s Common Sense makes some very powerful observations and will continue to post them here.


46 posted on 01/25/2010 10:11:05 AM PST by Eagle of Liberty (This nation must not die on our watch.)
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To: Kerretarded

I agree. I hope you will. This statement alone has great weight:

Wherefore, security being the true design and end of government, it unanswerably follows that whatever form thereof appears most likely to ensure it to us, with the least expense and greatest benefit, is preferable to all others.

My view of government is not that it is evil, but that it is —human— therefore it will always be flawed. Paine made a very important point, having the feeling of security as fully as possible while at the same time giving up as little as possible, is by far the more preferred route for a human to desire. The reason the American form of security as established by the founders has been corrupted in the years since our country’s beginning is because it was built on the premise that the Creator established a natural law by which we all benefit. This very premise has become undesirable over time by many who reject the Creator. This premise ultimately requires a nurturing —society— to have a moral code which does not condone depravity. This means —life— must be VALUED in all its forms. The current health care debate revolves around the idea of life and how it can be —valued— with the giving or taking of goods and services by the determination of our government. Man seeks to place himself in the Creator’s seat.


47 posted on 01/25/2010 11:04:11 AM PST by daisy mae for the usa
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To: daisy mae for the usa

PRECISELY!

As Government grabs more “security” away from us, i.e. the bigger that safety net gets, the more FREEDOM we lose! We were all given the ability to choose, but some wish to completely give up that ability in exchange for the handouts from Government.


48 posted on 01/25/2010 11:15:10 AM PST by Eagle of Liberty (This nation must not die on our watch.)
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To: eeevil conservative

Alinsky’s RFR mentions that he was to begin with a sociologist.

Here’ a good, I think, article on sociology that may serve as am eye-opener.

http://gunnyg.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/and-just-where-did-sociology-come-from/


49 posted on 01/25/2010 4:49:13 PM PST by gunnyg (Just An Old Gunny ~ And *Still* Not A F'n Commie Basterd!)
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To: gunnyg
Having only taken a couple of sociology courses, two things are evident to me. First, most sociology teachers are nuts. Second, inherent in the study of sociology is an assumption that the sociologist has the right to control other people.
50 posted on 01/25/2010 6:54:57 PM PST by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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