New Theory on Cause of Deadly Nevada Air Show Crash

Fox News ^ | 9/20/11 | hap

[Talkradio03]

A newly released photograph of the deadly Nevada air racing disaster suggests the pilot in the crash may have become dislodged in the cockpit. The NTSB is investigating what caused a WWII era P-51 fighter plane to crash in Reno during Friday’s race, killing 10 people and injuring 70 others.

[SkyDancer]

The news keeps bringing up the fact that the pilot was 74 years old. Big deal. So long as they can pass their FAA medical exam and are current in make and model of aircraft they fly then it makes no difference how old they are. Chuck Yeager flew an F-15D when he was 74. The chase plane for the flight was an F-16 Fighting Falcon piloted by Bob Hoover, a famous air-show pilot, and his wingman for the first supersonic flight was 75.

[MeneMeneTekelUpharsin]

Bump for reference.

[OneVike]

First let me ask if you hold this world to be a better place than heaven?

You ask me about a 20 year old, not a child. At a certain point in life a person becomes accountable before God. I would guess that a 20 year old pilot is old enough to have chosen or rejected Christ as their Lord and savior long before they were shot down over Vietnam.

Even if he did not, he was old enough to have understood good or evil, and thus be accountable to God for his choices in life. It is not a tragedy to die young if they knew Christ. What is a tragedy, is to live a full long life and never know Christ. Than they will be lost for eternity.

Think about that.. Eternity is a very, very, very long time. Even if you live to be 120, that is a very, very, very short time. We speak in terms of men, but we must understand things in the eyes of an everlasting eternal God.

However, my quote you took was for children who have yet to even understand what good or evil is when they had died. As a rule, children to young to be accountable are spared a long life of may miseries and instead get a pass to go straight to heaven. (as a rule, I am sure there are exceptions, but only God knows what those exceptions would be.)

I often times wish I could have been saved the grief of my many years of life in this world, and instead been granted a free pass to eternity without the pain I have suffered.

[RVN Airplane Driver]

Ever known anyone who grew new arms or legs by praying?

Not to my knowledge...do you know someone...oh...wait a minute you posed the question.

[RVN Airplane Driver]

You ask me about a 20 year old, not a child. At a certain point in life a person becomes accountable before God. I would guess that a 20 year old pilot is old enough to have chosen or rejected Christ as their Lord and savior long before they were shot down over Vietnam.

Wait a minute...you are saying that the guys who were shot down and killed had rejected Christ... I do believe that is a deductive leap that only a fool would make..... You are starting to make a fool of yourself with statements like that.... Probably need to save yourself and shut up...or as the old saying goes...better to appear a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt!

[Kirkwood]

“A couple of things:
First; I’m a bit smug at the thought that I noted the absence of a pilot as soon as I saw that photo yesterday.”

We were already discussing this here last Saturday a few minutes after the new photos came out.

[OneVike]

One other thing.

The age of accountability will vary between each individual.

What one person understands and is able to accept at one age may not be that same as others.

I know 12 year olds who are very knowledgeable and should be held accountable. I also know of 18 year olds who are clueless.

Ultimately God knows the heart and what one understands about good and evil.

Ultimately, every knee shall bow, and every tongue will confess that He is Lord.

The question comes from what they knew, understood, and whether they accepted or rejected Him when given the chance while alive in this world.

[OneVike]

That is not what I said.

What I said was that they were old enough probably to understand the difference between good and evil.

Only they and God knows their heart, but they were obviously old enough to understand the difference between good and evil.

Where they are now only God knows.

[freejohn]

You can't work both sides of the street...either God is in charge and control all...hence prayer works or....what.......

I can only go on what is implied and it seems that you 'imply' a lot!?

I can only guess that you were asking about the outcome of prayers to God?

I don't read minds so .. I don't know what .. "hence prayer works or....what...." means!?

[grobdriver]

That was so stupid.
An "aviation mechanic" huh?
They must be blind to the addition detail in those pictures of Jimmy's head in his lap. He's wasn't on his back.

1. Jimmy hits wake turbulence of the plane ahead of him.
2. The trim tab breaks off.
3. The elevator unloads.
4. The aircraft pitches up with > 15 Gees applied (this is known from telemetry).
5. Jimmy GLOCs, head goes forward - the G loads must have also broken his shoulder harness mounting bolts or the straps themselves (less likely) or the latch.
6. The aircraft, still at full power, goes ballistic.

There was no heroic pilot saving the day - he was just a passenger in those last few seconds.

[OneVike]

Wait a minute...you are saying that the guys who were shot down and killed had rejected Christ...

Please show me where I said that?

[AndrewC]

What? He kept it from plowing into the grandstand, but couldn't or didn't want to move it away from the ten killed and others injured?

Then you must be absolutely befuddled by the fact that Lazarus was allowed to die. I guess the answer lies in the answer to a greater question, "Why do bad things happen?"

[Fester Chugabrew]

. . . accidents happen to the Bad and The Good and it has NOTHING to do with GOD!

"See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand."

(Not that God needs to defend Himself against idle, ignorant speculators.)

[SgtBob]

I agree with your take that the PIC was indeed a passenger. He “mayday”d, but, hells bells FAA has 16G seats in coach...was his A&P that shoddy?

[SandwicheGuy]

1. Jimmy hits wake turbulence of the plane ahead of him. 2. The trim tab breaks off.

Somewhere in here the pilot calls 'Mayday.' And somewhere in here the tail wheel lowers.

The trim tab would have instantly separated at that speed, with the results you mentioned, leaving one to speculate that something else caused the pilot to call 'Mayday' before the trip tab separated as there would have been no time after.

[Yosemitest]

Here's some insight on "Wake Turbulence".

Take a look at this photo, and consider the size of the wake.
Also realize that the wake is behind the aircraft and much larger than the aircraft.
Also realize that the aircraft is probably in level flight at just above landing speed.



Here's another photo to consider.



Realize that the larger vortices at the wingtips are NOT visible in this second photo.




A Mustang P-51 is a CAT III aircraft for wake turbulence. Source is almost at the bottom, after ROCKWELL INTERNATIONAL CORP. (USA)
I don't know what type aircraft were ahead of him, but I assume the similar type aircraft with similar type speeds.
You also know the definition of:
WAKE TURBULENCE- Phenomena resulting from the passage of an aircraft through the atmosphere. The term includes vortices, thrust stream turbulence, jet blast, jet wash, propeller wash, and rotor wash both on the ground and in the air.
You know that a touch and go/low approach (what is closest to the air racing low to the ground) over the same runway requires, When either is a Category III aircraft- 6,000 feet and that's at a normal landing speed.
These racing aircraft were NOT at landing speed.
You're familiar with the AIM, chapter 7, but just in case you want to review it, click here.
But let's review anyway.
... The strength of the vortex is governed by the weight, speed, and shape of the wing of the generating aircraft. The vortex characteristics of any given aircraft can also be changed by extension of flaps or other wing configuring devices as well as by change in speed. However, as the basic factor is weight, the vortex strength increases proportionately. Peak vortex tangential speeds exceeding 300 feet per second have been recorded. ...

1. In rare instances a wake encounter could cause inflight structural damage of catastrophic proportions. However, the usual hazard is associated with induced rolling moments which can exceed the roll-control authority of the encountering aircraft. In flight experiments, aircraft have been intentionally flown directly up trailing vortex cores of larger aircraft. It was shown that the capability of an aircraft to counteract the roll imposed by the wake vortex primarily depends on the wingspan and counter-control responsiveness of the encountering aircraft.

2. Counter control is usually effective and induced roll minimal in cases where the wingspan and ailerons of the encountering aircraft extend beyond the rotational flow field of the vortex. It is more difficult for aircraft with short wingspan (relative to the generating aircraft) to counter the imposed roll induced by vortex flow. Pilots of short span aircraft, even of the high performance type, must be especially alert to vortex encounters.
(See FIG 7-3-2.)



Something else that you probably are aware of is wind's effects on wake turbulence.
But just remember
A crosswind will decrease the lateral movement of the upwind vortex and increase the movement of the downwind vortex. Thus a light wind with a cross runway component of 1 to 5 knots could result in the upwind vortex remaining in the touchdown zone for a period of time and hasten the drift of the downwind vortex toward another runway. (See FIG 7-3-6.) Similarly, a tailwind condition can move the vortices of the preceding aircraft forward into the touchdown zone. THE LIGHT QUARTERING TAILWIND REQUIRES MAXIMUM CAUTION. ... (See FIG 7-3-7.)

The pilot went under someone's wake, when he should have went slightly above that lead aircraft's flight path.
It's my guess that when he experienced the roll from the wake, he counter rolled and jerked the plane up.
Then the seat broke, and he let go of the stick, and down it came.
With over 30 years of air traffic control experience, mostly in the military, that's my educated guess.
Never, but never, cross under and inside a high performance aircraft's track.

I'm trying to save lives, here.
Don't get caught up in the "large, heavy" mentality for wake turbulence.
Don't forget about aircraft category classes (CAT I, CAT II, and CAT III).
Also, helicopters can produce some very dangerous wake turbulence, even though they are physically small.
Never, never, NEVER, forget about high performance aircraft. That error will kill you, and your passengers.

What's my point? My point is to consider:

where the "Galloping Ghost was in the race, and how many aircraft were ahead of him.
How many loops had they made around the pylons?
In other words, how tore up was the air where the modified P-51 Mustang first encountered its roll (the point of the wake turbulence encounter)?

[grobdriver]

Somewhere in here the pilot calls 'Mayday.'

Actually, three people in my crew had radios and no one heard anyone call a mayday.
Seems to be a rumor - but perhaps radio transcripts will show up.

The tailwheel was probably thrown out by the Gees. I don't remember if anyone said whether Voodoo's tailwheel deployed when this same thing happened to him in... 2007 I think it was.

[norton]

...last Saturday a few minutes after the new photos came out.

Missed the photo 'till Sunday or Monday.
Can I keep just a little of the smug?
It's been a lousy year.

[Kirkwood]

Sure. Why not.