Sven Kullander On Rossi And eCat

Sven Kullander On Rossi And eCat
admin on November 23, 2011 — 6 Comments

http://ecatnews.com/?p=1409
The following was posted on the Facebook Energy Catalyzer page. It comes from Hampus Ericsson who attended Sven Kullander’s Örebro talk today. Kullander has been a key player in gaining Rossi credibility in the past few months. Taken in the sweep, it appears to me that he believes in Rossi and his claims but reserves the right to be wrong until definitive independent tests drive the nail home. His comment about AR’s prickly response to anyone who distrusts him is interesting. This flies counter to his public stance on genuine scepticism. No scientist should work completely on trust. No scientist will truly trust him/herself. Perhaps the comment relates to personal attacks on his integrity. That I would understand. He is right to be angry at those type of attacks.

I couldn’t stay for all of it because I have a train to catch. The lecture was good. He started by going I’ve all different types of nuclear power. And then he talked about hot fusion and when that might be functional.

Then the good par came, he talked about all the different test that have been made of Rossi’s ecat( basically read the NyTeknik reports.

Then he talked about his own test, he said that it proved that heat was made but he couldn’t say how, and he dont believe it’s cold fusion because that impossible by today’s science. But it could only be explained by cold fusion happening. He was very confused .

He also said that Rossi is definitely not a fraud and that his friend Focardi and Levi is absolutely not frauds. They are his friends and he trust them.
Rossi on the other had he said to be a black box.
He said that NASA had contacted him and asked about rossis ecat. So NASA was the first American customer that bailed. Apparently they wanted to know how it worked and Rossi wanted to keep the secret for himself.

Sven kullander did not know who the final costumer is.

He also said that Rossi can be a little bit angry at people who don’t trust him. That’s why Sven have kept on Rossi god side and never told him that it don’t work.

Sven said that he have asked Rossi if Uppsala university can independently test the device, with the demand that all information will be reveled to the public. If Rossi says no to this Uppsala will not test the device.

One of the most interesting thins was that Sven kullander sad that Focardi and Levi are both excellent professor that he believe a 100% in, Rossi on the other hand is a little bit of a black box. He said that there are two black boxes in this history, Rossi and he ecat.

He also said that his colleague Roland Peterson (think that was his name) is very positive on the ecat.

Sven also showed the test of the nickel fuel and the copper nickel that is left after the reaction. They will come out with a full article on this when all the testing is done. But the first test show copper in the waste

[With thanks to Akira Shirakawa on Vortex]

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More On The Sven Kullander eCat Talk
admin on November 24, 2011 — 11 Comments

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The pedigree of Sven Kullander and Hanno Essen is interesting. From Wikipedia:
Professor Kullander is professor emeritus of High Energy Physics at Uppsala University. Kullander received his doctorate from Uppsala University in 1971. Since 1990, Kullander has been a member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences and chairman of its Energy Committee
Hanno Essén is an associate professor of theoretical physics and a lecturer at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology and former chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society
Their role in the Andrea Rossi affair began when they expressed an interest in the eCat and then attended a Bologna demo. During that demo, the eCat seemed to produce around 5kW of heat from a small sealed vessel (50 ccm) containing Hydrogen and Nickel. They were allowed to check for hidden conduits and examine the instruments and various elements of the system. They were not allowed access to the core but since it was small and the claimed energy large, it was reasonable to treat the device as a black box to determine its utility.

In many of the arguments posed by reasonable and unreasonable sceptics alike, doubt is often cast on those attending these events. Various inventions are created to explain why otherwise intelligent people could be so stupid as to fall for Rossi’s tricks. Senility, stupidity, human error, dishonesty, fraud and gullibility are all wheeled out in turn. If you have been there and leave believing the claim might be real, there has to be something wrong – you are either in on the scam or too dumb to see it.

No one can accuse Kullander or Essen of not being independent. How often have we heard that a scammer would never let an independent and qualified scientist near their scamming machine? And yet, here we have two physicists, both active and experienced, one the chairman of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences’ (of Nobel fame) Energy Committee and the other the former chairman of the Swedish Skeptics’ Society and both allowed dangerous and intimate access to a working eCat.

Both scientists are well aware that what they saw and measured does not constitute proof and neither can say with certainty that Rossi’s claims are true. They would be foolish to do so. Indeed both admit that they could not check everything and although they do not suspect fraud, they have to leave that door open as a small possibility.

They published a travel report detailing the demo and results and expressing their belief that (assuming no fraud) the eCat was producing so much energy that it had to be nuclear in origin.

For many months, both scientists remained out of the light and some hard sceptics wondered if they were distancing themselves from Rossi and that report – now embarrassed that they had ever been involved. However, recently Kullander has begun to publicly reveal his current thinking and yesterday gave a talk (Swedish) to an audience in Örebro. Today, Ny Teknik, the Swedish magazine responsible for extensive reporting throughout the year has published a pdf of that talk. Together with an audio recording by a member of the audience (again, in Swedish) and a variety of interpretations from around the Net, we begin to get a good idea of Kullander’s current view of Rossi and the eCat. It is nuanced and intelligent and does not conform to that expected of the term ‘Believer’.

To be fair, I doubt a reasonable sceptic would place that moniker on him as the scientist clearly leaves room for his conclusions to be wrong. That said, most of us have read others who are less supportive than Kullander being labeled as a believer as though the tag could colour you gullible.

The following has been Googleized from a report by Bertil Nilsson on a Swedish forum discussing Kullander’s talk (here is the audio):
Biggest “scoop” is well that, according to Rossi, it works without a catalyst. It can be measured net energy even with only nickel and hydrogen. He says that as a reason why his patent to go through. But it opens the course for the reproduction of this, we have many who can kalimoetri precision now after all the thinking.

Kullander is deeply skeptical of the proton capture of nickel, believes that there are other possibilities. He outlined a number of them, but I must return later. I can not enough to sum up the piece. He was puzzled by the presence of natural copper in the ash, but a detailed isotopic analysis is expected to be ready for Christmas
Kullander told further about their personal experiences of a large number of people at the University of Bologna has been more or less concerned about the ECAT, the most active of course Focardi and Levi. He feels these people knowledgeable and up to serious, from the president down. Kullander feel even Rossi as sincere and serious and a very knowledgeable and skilled engineer but somewhat discursive reasoning when entering the field of physics. He also talked about discussions he had with Levi for a large number of tests that are not described but conducted by Levi, who personally knows the ECAT works.

Kullander believes that Rossi for their own sake must be sure to get an independent verification of heat output and that he was not to be overtaken should ally itself with some great players, like Siemens or ABB. One problem here may be that Rossi has a deep personal relationship with their cats, as he usually describe them. Kullander has offered Rossi to test and verify an ECAT in Uppsala in collaboration with the University of Bologna. Discussions on this are ongoing. Kullander preclude an agreement whereby secrecy around that they have an ECAT in place or that the results may not be shown publicly.

The above is in addition to yesterday’s report which I repeat here:
I couldn’t stay for all of it because I have a train to catch. The lecture was good. He started by going I’ve all different types of nuclear power. And then he talked about hot fusion and when that might be functional.

Then the good par came, he talked about all the different test that have been made of Rossi’s ecat( basically read the NyTeknik reports.

Then he talked about his own test, he said that it proved that heat was made but he couldn’t say how, and he dont believe it’s cold fusion because that impossible by today’s science. But it could only be explained by cold fusion happening. He was very confused .

He also said that Rossi is definitely not a fraud and that his friend Focardi and Levi is absolutely not frauds. They are his friends and he trust them.
Rossi on the other had he said to be a black box.
He said that NASA had contacted him and asked about rossis ecat. So NASA was the first American customer that bailed. Apparently they wanted to know how it worked and Rossi wanted to keep the secret for himself.

Sven kullander did not know who the final costumer is.

He also said that Rossi can be a little bit angry at people who don’t trust him. That’s why Sven have kept on Rossi god side and never told him that it don’t work.

Sven said that he have asked Rossi if Uppsala university can independently test the device, with the demand that all information will be reveled to the public. If Rossi says no to this Uppsala will not test the device.

One of the most interesting thins was that Sven kullander sad that Focardi and Levi are both excellent professor that he believe a 100% in, Rossi on the other hand is a little bit of a black box. He said that there are two black boxes in this history, Rossi and he ecat.

He also said that his colleague Roland Peterson (think that was his name) is very positive on the ecat.

Sven also showed the test of the nickel fuel and the copper nickel that is left after the reaction. They will come out with a full article on this when all the testing is done. But the first test show copper in the waste.

[With thanks to Tom in the eCatNews.com comments section and Akira Shirakawa on Vortex]

http://ecatnews.com/?p=1409

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The Cold Fusion Ping List

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/coldfusion/index?tab=articles

-------------------------------------------------------------- http://ecatnews.com/?p=1144

Unfortunately, if Rossi did the following:

1) hired a bunch of actors to pretend to be the customer reps,

2) created an elaborate year-long special-effects-derived series of demos,

3) bribed, hypnotised or otherwise fooled Focardi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Bianchini, Stremmenos

4) arranged for Piantelli, Miley and a host of others to try to fool the world into thinking that cold fusion was real,

5) got NASA, SPAWAR, The Defense Threat Reduction Agency and The Defense Intelligence Agency to say nice things about the field,

6) got Bushnell to make a fool of himself,

7) and convinced his former partners to set up another company called Ampenergo to pretend that they had a contract for The Americas for a substantial sum ----- or that they just did this with no proof because they have worked with Rossi and trust him because he’s such a fine fellow,

8) sold his profitable company to his ex-partners in order to spend that wealth on a multi-million dollar scam; ----- certain that once he got all the above ducks in a row he would pretend to sell the first device ----- and then reel in the true target of his dastardly plan

9) and convinced a bunch of Greek crooks to set up a dummy company called Defkalion ----- to pretend to fight with him over the non-existent eCat, ----- to perpetuate the illusion and spin it off into a competing mirror-scam

[the second (this time genuine) buyer of a 1MW plant that will net him $2 million dollars ----- until they want their money back or sucker a $100 million dollar deal under the table ----- because he has experience in pulling the wool over all these idiotic eyes ----- and knows that they will just take his word for it ----- and not want to test if his 1MW plant can heat a small village without truckloads of coal or oil or a big fat electric cable coming into the container from beneath the floor (no you can’t lift the carpet!) ]

10) and that, in order to pull this off, Rossi had to risk discovery by interviewing all the people he subsequently fooled so that he could only invite the gullible Professors and not the brilliant anonymous posters on the Internet who surely would have found him out

then, yes, all bets are off and I’m with the guys who think that Rossi is an idiot and they are all geniuses.

If Rossi is just out to screw people out of money or make a big name for himself, he’s sure going about it the wrong way!

Why? Because he isn't going public? Most scammers go after private investors. They're much easier to fleece without bringing too much negative attention on oneself.

Still waiting for:

Any independent confirmation that the E-Cat does anything useful at all.
Any independent confirmation that Rossi has any customers at all. (Every one of his alleged customers are "secret").
Any independent confirmation that Rossi has a factory to build the thousands of individual E-Cat units, or the dozens of cargo-container-sized assemblies of them.
Any independent confirmation that Rossi's mysterious "NATO Colonel" actually exists. (With all the people pouring over every detail of this story, it's incredible that no one has found a single reference to this man's existence before he appeared for Rossi's test.)
If Rossi's "secret customer" was running the October 28th test, and they were concerned about secrecy, why would they let Rossi invite a bunch of outsiders to what was, supposedly, their multi-million dollar acceptance test. Rossi could have had a separate public demo, which would have allowed him to let outside observers actually get involved in the test.
Any reasonable explanation of what nuclear reactions are supposedly converting Nickel into Copper. (Rossi has several inconsistent "theories" floating around, none of which match the analysis of the "fuel" and "ash" Rossi supplied.) [LINK]
Why his October 28th test (with 107 E-Cats in a cargo container) did not require the "Frequency Generator" that all of his previous tests required. (My guess: It doesn't really do anything, and he didn't feel like making 106 more "do nothing" gadgets just for this one dog & pony show.)
Why anyone would buy a Rossi E-Cat when his European partner is selling a "genuine" perpetual motion machine. [LINK]

Report of Sven Kullander’s Lecture about Nuclear Power/E-Cat at Orebro University, Sweden

http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/report-of-sven-kullanders-lecture-about-nuclear-powerandrea-rossis-e-cat-at-orebro-university-sweden/

November 24, 2011
Many thanks to Hampus Ericsson for sending this report of Sven Kullander’s lecture, “Tomorrow’s Nuclear Power — Will it be Cold or Hot?” which was given at Orebro University in Sweden on November 23rd .

First he started with talking about how the world could change if Rossi is right. Then he went over all different kinds of nuclear plants and last he talked about Rossi. He just went over Ny Tekniks articles and ended with going over Focardi’s article from 1994 were he proves extra energy can be made from hydrogen and nickel .

He said that it must be the fusion of nickel and hydrogen and causes the extra heat in the experiment that he saw in Bologna but as a scientist he couldn’t say that, because that would break the laws of today’s science .

He confirmed that is was NASA that refused to buy the E-Cats the first time, they wanted to know the secret of Rossi’s machine and Rossi said no.
He also said it was Mats Lewan that introduced Rossi to him. So it seems Mats has been the link here .

He also talked about there being to black boxes in this story of Rossi and the E-Cat. Sven said that after 3 years of working with this Rossi gets very mad if anyone questions if it works, that’s why he doesn’t talk with so many people, only the ones who are “loyal” to him.
Sven stressed just like Mats Lewan how important it is to independently test the ecat and that Uppsala University is glad to do it. If Uppsala University gets an E-Cat they need to get full access, they will also need to be able to officially write a report that everyone can read. Rossi has not yet said yes to this, Sven said that Rossi understands that he needs to let go of his secret sooner or later (let’s hope it’s sooner) .

Sven said also that both Focardi and Levi are people that you can trust, and that this is not a fraud; maybe Rossi has fallen in love with his device a little bit too much and maybe he is reading some numbers wrong but he is not frauding anyone. Rossi was almost broke when Sven meet him. And the reason Rossi almost got in prison was because he wanted to make garbage into fuel Wich is high fashion right now. His company that he sold was doing just this .

So in short summary, there is extra heat that can’t be explained with a chemical process but we need more testing before we can say that it’s real for a 100% .

It was a nice lecture with 100 people in the audience, only 3 women. Most of the people were older, fifty plus. Nearly half of the people there had not heard of Rossi before, they thought it was a lecture about nuclear power.
Hampus Ericsson .

Tags: e-cat, Orebro University, Sven Kullander
21 Responses to Report of Sven Kullander’s Lecture about Nuclear Power/E-Cat at Orebro University, Sweden
Transition to Cold Fusion "Will be hell" for US & Europe? - Page 14 - Parapsychology and alternative medicine forums of mind-energy.net on November 24, 2011 at 6:19 pm
[...] [...]

Sanjeev on November 24, 2011 at 5:28 pm
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=516&cpage=14#comment-129682
Rossi says he set a trap for DGT. In other words he lied to them, as they were trying to steal the tech .

This would mean many things. One is that DGT has nothing probably and that no one knows which other things are lies. Fodder for skeptics surely, but IMO, this is a bad news for all those who are optimistic, including me.
Reply

Steve Robb on November 24, 2011 at 3:09 pm
I don’t understand why these “scientists” feel they need access to the details of the reactor to determine if it is working as claimed. They have the first law of thermodynamics at their disposal and have used it repeatedly to show that the system produces a much greater amount of energy out that was put into the system. That is all you need to show the e-cat or any other system is producing net energy. To take it apart will only reveal details of how it works not whether it works. Rossi does not owe them those details and they don’t need it. Certainly I am curious about the details but at present it should remain a black box device to protect the inventors intellectual property .

Reply

Sanjeev on November 24, 2011 at 4:18 pm
I agree with you and I can guess a reason for why a scientist would want to know what’s inside, which is – fear of getting cheated .

Any competent scientist knows that the black box is something extraordinary, defying the known knowledge (called ‘laws’), so he is afraid to approve it lest its a trick. Moreover, he won’t get anything out of such a test, all money and all glory belong to Rossi. If it turns out to be a trick, his carrier is dead…
A customer, on the other hand, will be happy to test the black box as long as he makes a profit using it. His risk is only monetary loss, which he can claim in court .

Reply

Fabian Montgomery on November 24, 2011 at 4:24 pm
I think that scientists are more concerned with understanding the mechanism of Rossi’s discovery rather than its practical application. Assuming that Rossi’s device is on the level, they have good reason to want to get their hands on an E-Cat, since it could revolutionise the standard theories. This is Nobel Prize territory, every scientists wet dream .

Rossi on the other hand, is an industrialist. He wants to be a Cold-Fusion tycoon, that appears to be his dream. I don’t think that he will ever be awarded a Nobel prize unless he creates a solid theory explaining the effect, and is awarded some sort of honorary physics degree and I think that Rossi knows that .

I hope that he remembers Foccardi and his friends at the University of Bologna to have the first crack at doing the theoretical science .

Reply

Sanjeev on November 24, 2011 at 4:27 pm
Connected to the same issue is the question – why Rossi is reluctant to get a test done, even a black box test ?
I guess the answer is fear of losing the secret .

It will be possible for a competent scientist to find out what’s inside the core without opening it or what RF values are used etc etc. Rossi is a busy man, he cannot guard the box 24×7. Of course there can be NDAs and all, but it can’t prevent anyone from coming up with a similar but only slightly different method. DGT is a good example. (Assuming their product works)
Reply

Fabian Montgomery on November 24, 2011 at 5:04 pm
I do not think that there is an actual “black box” in E-cat. The term “black box” is a science and engineering term describing a type of system, from Wikipedia:
“In science and engineering, a black box is a device, system or object which can be viewed solely in terms of its input, output and transfer characteristics without any knowledge of its internal workings.”
I think that the use of this term has created some sort of perception that there’s some sort of RF device on E-Cat. I do not recall a direct quote from Rossi about such a thing. Please correct me if I’m wrong .

Reply

Sanjeev on November 24, 2011 at 5:32 pm
By ‘black box’ I meant the reactor core, no one is allowed to look inside .

As far as I know, there is a RF generator somewhere in Ecat. I won’t be able to provide a link, but there was a discussion about it on vortex .

Reply

He also said that Rossi is definitely not a fraud and that his friend Focardi and Levi is absolutely not frauds. They are his friends and he trust them.

Yea, about that...

Here are the stories I can find about Rossi's criminal background (Note that sometimes Google Translate translates "Andrea Rossi" into "Andrew Smith"):

January 8, 1992: Rossi indicted with 8 others, based on false invoices related to building a factory. [Italian] [English]

April 12, 1992: Rossi found guilty, sentenced to 4 months, suspended, for illegal transport, storage, but acquitted on illegal dumping. [Italian] [English]

March 24, 1993: Rossi sentenced to 8 months in prison, suspended, for violating the rules related to waste disposal. [Italian] [English]

March 9, 1994: Rossi's Petrol Dragon company forced to shut down over toxic waste issues. According to the story, there was no sign of Rossi actually converting wast into fuel, and one of his customers had claimed to be purchasing the fuel from Rossi well over a year after Rossi's plant had been shut down. [Italian] [English]

March 28, 1995: Another story describing the industrial waste left in silos by Rossi's company, Petrol Dragon, which had supposedly been converted into fuel. [Italian] [English]

March 29, 1995: Background of Rossi's jewelery business, and the charges of fraud related to phony gold shipments. [Italian] [English]

March 30, 1995: Rossi and four others accused of fake invoices for sale of tens of kilos of gold." [Italian] [English]

April 6, 1995: story about charges of money laundering and tax evasion related to false billing for the transfer of 46 billion ingots of gold (2,323 lbs.). [Italian] [English]

May 24, 1995: Rossi arrested for "criminal association aimed at the false invoicing and tax evasion." [Italian] [English]

January 25, 1996: Rossi complains about the loss of Petrol Dragon, claims innocence. [Italian] [English]

February 20, 1996: Preliminary hearing on gold fraud charges. [Italian] [English]

April 25, 1996: Article with Rossi's boasts of a process to convert waste into fuel, and description of the warehouses storing the unprocessed waste. [Italian] [English]

September 25, 1996: Article about criminal conspiracy to commit fraud and false tax invoices, along with five accomplices. Rossi claimed to have shipped "60 billion" (Lira?) of gold which didn't exist. [Italian] [English]

March 19, 1997: Rossi's conviction for illegal storage and disposal of toxic waste was upheld by the Court of Appeals. [Italian] [English]

May 23, 1997: Rossi sentenced to 2 years, 8 months for tax fraud. He created fictitious invoices between four companies he managed. [Italian] [English]

February 24, 1998: Two of Rossi's employees get plea deal. [Italian] [English]

October 23, 1998: Article about the cleanup efforts from the toxic waste sites left by Rossi's company. [Italian] [English]

June 1, 2000: Described as "Fugitive in the U.S.", Rossi is arrested in Rome for aggravated fraud and bankruptcy fraud" Accused of being "on the run" for about a year. Accused of leaving "dozens of stores in Northern Italy overflowing [with] industrial sewage." [Italian] [English]

October 20, 2000: Rossi sentenced to 8 years for fraudulent bankruptcy. [Italian] [English]

October 19, 2003: Article about how Rossi's customers are having to pay millions of Euros to pay for the cleanup of the toxic waste dump sites left by Rossi's company. [Italian] [English]

November 27, 2004: Rossi acquitted on toxic waste dumping charges. 41 million Euros were spent to clean up the waste dump left by Rossi's company. [Italian] [English]

Conclusions:

Rossi was convicted for fraud related to building a factory in southern Italy (apparently trying to claim earthquake-related subsidies).
Rossi was convicted of dumping toxic waste, as well as conspiracy and tax fraud, along with a number of others. Parts of this conviction were eventually overturned. It's not clear whether this included the conspiracy and tax fraud, or just the dumping.
There was never any indication that Rossi was actually converting waste into oil. It appears that this was a scam to launder money. The waste was simply stored and eventually dumped.
Rossi was convicted of fraud related to shipping gold internationally. This had nothing to do with his convictions related to Petrol Dragon. Apparently, Rossi had a thriving jewelery business while he was committing the gold shipping fraud.
Rossi was convicted of fraud related to the bankruptcy of a company that was involved with Petrol Dragon. This resulted in an 8 year jail sentence.

After that, Rossi appears to drop off the radar in the Italian press until he shows up with his E-Cat.

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