Posted on 12/28/2012 6:28:15 AM PST by marktwain
David Gregory needs to please turn himself in to the authorities.
Mr. Gregory has been accused of having a piece of metal of the wrong size. We've all seen the video of him waving that metal box and spring about on Meet The Press, a box and spring that is illegal to posses in the District of Columbia. We can debate the logic and sense of the law and how it is interpreted at a later date. There is no time for that now. Mr. Gregory needs to act before this spins out of control.
He needs to do the right and merciful thing and turn himself in before someone tells a member of the FBI HRT where his family lives.
Officially the penalty for his crime is 1 year in jail. Unofficially the penalty is much, much more. Vicki and Samuel Weaver are sadly unavailable to comment but before their fate is repeated I beseech Mr. Gregory to do the humane thing and surrender himself to the authorities. It's not worth having your children watch their mother die. A year in prison is nothing compared to knowing that your son will never see his 15th birthday because you thought that being punished for having a piece of metal of the wrong size is not a serious matter.
It's a very serious matter. Deadly serious. Turn yourself in, Mr. Gregory. Turn yourself in now.
He was surrounded by armed federal agents and he decided to use his family as human shields.
He was either going to surrender or die.
If he was a true diehard, he would have drawn fire away from his family and gone out in a blaze of "glory."
If he was a rational person he would have told the agents: "If you bring my lawyer here to observe, I will come quietly."
But he did neither: he used his family as human shields, watching two of them die, until he was sure that he was next - then he gave up.
At what point do I cave because my wife and kids depend on my income?
It isn't a matter of caving. Fight them in court (which was one of Weaver's options and which he eventually did, and came out pretty well).
As a man of honor, you would not use your family as pawns.
Not so Weaver.
I'm not sure how anything I wrote amounts to an "endorsement" of what happened or a belief that a government paycheck makes someone "better" than someone who doesn't have one.
Shoot to kill orders for Rules of Engagement
As the investigators found, those rules were based on findings proffered by the ATF to the FBI - findings which the ATF lied about.
The FBI trusted that the ATF was giving them good information - they learned their lesson at great cost.
The ROE did not cover the shooting of his son and wife.
I agree that Deaver was a victim, as were Samuel and Viki.
The ATF was the primary instigator and cause of the whole mess. The whole short barreled shotgun affair was instigated by their informant, and their desire to make Weaver into another informant against his will. The FBI was lied to by the ATF; that led to their over the top response to the Weavers.
It took a stone hearted monster to put that boy’s head in the cross hairs and calmly pull the trigger.
Ooooh....I get it now. The sniper was trying to shoot THROUGH Weaver's wife to hit Weaver. Thanks, I never knew that.
From Weaver’s point of view, government agents had already framed him, harassed him, and murdered his son. He retreated to his home.
Then agents demanded he surrender and come out of the house... He was reluctant because he thought they would kill him.
Then they killed his unarmed wife.
Then, when finally they brought in a third party that Weaver trusted, he surrendered.
There is a considerable history of government agents killing those who they believe killed other government agents. I do not think that Randy Weaver was unreasonable in his fear that he would be killed before he was given a chance to surrender, and that he demanded that a neutral party be their for the surrender.
The Branch Davidians at Waco also demanded a neutral third party (Texas Rangers) and were denied.
be their should be “be there”
“The real victim was William Degan.”
Yea. Vickie Weaver and the kid don’t count cause they are just some of the “little people”.
William Degan, unless you can prove it wrong, never identified himself as law enforcement. Even if he did, he shot first. What would you do if you encountered an armed man trespassing and he shot your dog? Walk over and politely ask if you could be of service? I know cops shooting dogs has become pretty common but that’s pretty over the top. The ATF and FBI caused William Degan’s death. If he would have done the same thing on my property he would be just as dead.
Also, about 15 years ago, an assistant director of ATF admitted that the agency could NOT find half the records on legally possessed machine guns and other devices. This is the same agency whose testimony in court will send you to prison for at least 10 years and levy heavy fines on you for an “unregistered” Title II weapon.
I agree that this is a better argument to make. It is valid to show other rediculous parts of federal gun laws, such as those against short barreled shotguns and rifles.
Samuel Weaver shot at someone. That person returned fire. That doesn't make him a victim. It makes him the loser of a gunfight.
Vicki Weaver could have surrendered at any time. She instead decided to engage in a standoff. Her eyes were wide open.
Of the three, Degan was the one following his obligations in good faith.
No one seems to even remember that he existed - as far as most commentators are concerned, he is the "little people."
Those seem to be even more ridiculous now than they ever were, since all the enemies of the 2A are now arguing that long guns are a greater threat than pistols.
A person can be both the loser of a gunfight and a victim. Your logic there applies to Marshal Degan as well.
The jury found Harris, who admitted to shooting at someone (most likely Degan) not guilty.
The people who should have been held to account for these deaths were those who framed Weaver and set him up, then lied to the FBI (they would be found in the ATF), and the person who gave the "shoot to kill" order from the FBI.
None of them were ever held to account.
That takes some doing.
“Vicki Weaver could have surrendered at any time. She instead decided to engage in a standoff. Her eyes were wide open.”
Now, apparently, running into a house with a baby in your arms is an offense punishable by death.
The story behind that is instructive.
The prosecutors had all the evidence itemized against Harris. Then they provided Harris' counsel with an itemized list that was improperly numbered, making it difficult for Harris' counsel to identify and refute the evidence.
Harris' celebrity attorney, Gerry Spence (an excellent litigator) moved to have all the evidence suppressed as a result.
It was.
So the jury saw no physical evidence against Harris, and quite responsibly decided that you cannot convict without any evidence besides the testimony of hostile witnesses.
His acquittal had nothing to do with his actions being justified - that wasn't even an argument Spence tried to make. His only argument was: "there is no evidence."
What does that mean? Degan was doubly victimized by his murderer and by his own employers.
Obviously it isn't.
The point is she knowingly placed herself in jeopardy when she had the option of surrender.
She chose crossfire.
Congressman John Dingell (D-MI) held hearings on this and other botched ATF operations. Dingell is the man responsible for coining the term “jackbooted thugs” to describe the ATF. There was talk at the time of the hearing for abolishing ATF and folding its operations into the FBI. That did not happen because NO federal agency would take the ATF personnel — so bad was their collective reputation. The result was ATF stayed in business and has gone on to more and better blunders.
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