Skip to comments.Before this gets out of hand...(David Gregory Crime)
Posted on 12/28/2012 6:28:15 AM PST by marktwain
David Gregory needs to please turn himself in to the authorities.
Mr. Gregory has been accused of having a piece of metal of the wrong size. We've all seen the video of him waving that metal box and spring about on Meet The Press, a box and spring that is illegal to posses in the District of Columbia. We can debate the logic and sense of the law and how it is interpreted at a later date. There is no time for that now. Mr. Gregory needs to act before this spins out of control.
He needs to do the right and merciful thing and turn himself in before someone tells a member of the FBI HRT where his family lives.
Officially the penalty for his crime is 1 year in jail. Unofficially the penalty is much, much more. Vicki and Samuel Weaver are sadly unavailable to comment but before their fate is repeated I beseech Mr. Gregory to do the humane thing and surrender himself to the authorities. It's not worth having your children watch their mother die. A year in prison is nothing compared to knowing that your son will never see his 15th birthday because you thought that being punished for having a piece of metal of the wrong size is not a serious matter.
It's a very serious matter. Deadly serious. Turn yourself in, Mr. Gregory. Turn yourself in now.
At the very minimum, Gregory should be placed on the TSA no-fly list.
They are not dead because their cowardly husband/father owned a 30 round mag.
They are dead because one of them murdered a federal marshal and because the other one knowingly harbored a fugitive murderer.
Do not use this controversy to valorize that execrable clown.
Oh the hugh manatee
words fail me...
Events at Ruby Ridge are disputed, but some folks say the BATF fired first, taking out the dog as the first action. To me, that sounds highly typical. The family responded in kind.
Gun confiscation, or any infringement of the RKBA is a serious matter. I don't put anyone on a pedestal, but I'm not so sure that Weaver qualifies as an "execrable clown".
i’m sure there are plenty of people serving time for this crime
why shouldn’t he be charged?
Agree. The USMS, FBI, BATFE, and DOJ acted execrably at Ruby Ridge, not the Weavers or Harris. The DOJ OPR Report, Congressional hearings, and civil actions proved so.
Originally. That was months before, and the feds had moved onto another charge - which was also problematic - namely not appearing for arraignment, i.e. being a fugitive.
But the siege was about the death of US Marshal William Degan, not a piece of metal.
The family responded in kind.
No moral person, and certainly no court, would argue that killing a dog is a legitimate excuse for killing a person.
Maybe someone from PETA would make that argument.
On the topic of defending RKBA rights, any rhetorical strategy based on sympathy with Randy Weaver is going to win over absolutely no one who is neutral on the matter.
The right argument to make here is: "I agree with David Gregory's media peers. Charging him with possessing a magazine is obviously stupid. So, I ask Gregory's media peers - what makes Gregory superior to other law-abiding citizens? Why should he be allowed to possess a magazine and the convenience store owner from whom Gregory buys his coffee not be allowed to? If the law is ridiculous for Gregory, why is not ridiculous for every other responsible adult?"
“the siege was about the death of US Marshal William Degan, not a piece of metal.”
Degan died while, and because of, commencing an armed raid on the Weaver home precisely over that half-inch-too-short piece of metal.
The reality of laws regarding minor transgressions, including those involving “a piece of metal”, is: if you do not comply, the state will escalate the issue so far as killing you over it and risking agents’ lives to do so. And that is exactly what happened: Weaver was conned into cutting a piece of metal a half inch too short, was charged for transgression of law prohibiting such a piece of metal (still just a metal tube), he refused to consent to such a stupid unconstitutional law, and the state sent agents to apprehend him with extreme prejudice.
Yes, it was about a piece of metal. That’s how far the state was willing to go because of a piece of metal.
One version says that the BATF shot the dog first, then shot the 14-year-old boy, and in response Kevin Harris shot Marshall Degan.
One government version says that Kevin Harris shot Marshall Degan in an unprovoked fashion, and in response a BATF agent decided to shoot the dog.
The point you make in reference to David Gregory is right on. But on the Ruby Ridge incident you seem to toe the line the Clinton Administration wanted people to swallow.
Not really. The shotgun-sawing was a pretext, as was the missed court date.
If they had tax fraud charges or any number of other federal crimes to use instead, they would have.
The Feds believed that Weaver was their way to infiltrate a number of radical groups in the Pacific Northwest.
The charges were a means of getting leverage over Weaver to inspire him to become a confidential informant.
They didn't realize that Weaver hated the government more than he loved his family.
One of many poor judgments during the entire case.
Clinton version: "We did an awesome job. It's a shame things got a bit out of hand, but in the end it was great work on our part!"
Alex Jones version: "Randy Weaver is a selfless American hero! The FBI couldn't stand to see a proud and free man stand unbowed, so they launched a nationwide conspiracy to bring him to heel!"
Reality: Randy Weaver is a sociopathic loser who talked a big game, but chose to let his wife and children pay the price while preserving his own life. His shiftless paranoia was confronted by an ATF who were overeager to bust radical groups in the Northwest, but who were too incompetent to put together a fairly basic sting operation. They botched it, escalated the situation to a red hot frenzy and turned an arrest warrant into a needlessly violent siege.
It is not paranoia if they really are out to get you. Weaver was found not guilty and the federal government paid millions in an out of court settlement. Blaming Weaver for this incident is the classic case of blaming the victim.
“...They didn’t realize that Weaver hated the government more than he loved his family.
One of many poor judgments during the entire case.”
I follow you up to this point. Then - - -
You seem to say that if Weaver loved his family, he would have cooperated with, in some manner, the government. That he was selfish (in his beliefs?) and sacrificed his family.
I will posit that he hated the government because he loved his family. They were pursuing him where he lived with his family, thus they were also pursuing his family (which they did).
I belabor this point because the government is now pursuing me (taxation, obamacare, EPA regulation, and finally gun registration and fingerprinting). At what point do I cave because my wife and kids depend on my income? Do I sacrifice my convictions for their security.
Oops, I started to sound like Ben Franklin there for a moment. Maybe I have answered myself.
Agreed. Some people will side with authority no matter what evils they perform. Make no mistake, what the government did at Ruby Ridge was evil plain and simple.
Remember, AG Janet Reno's No. 2 at DoJ during the Waco Siege was Eric Holder. This same Eric Holder and Obama want to do for Americans what they accomplished in Mexico with Operation FAST AND FURIOUS.
August 1992 -- It was the GHWB administration.
Of course, the Bush-Clinton-Bush-Obama continuum has not wavered on the continuing JBT abuse of citizens.
The ATF is out to get anybody if that person can lead to a promotion-inducing collar. It wasn't personal - it was business.
Weaver was found not guilty and the federal government paid millions in an out of court settlement.
Actually Weaver was found guilty and served prison time. And the government paid his daughters $1mm each on the condition that all disbursements were accounted for by a trustee and that Weaver himself was prevented access to their money.
He received $100k.
Blaming Weaver for this incident is the classic case of blaming the victim.
The real victim was William Degan.
Weaver and the ATF were the bad actors here. Both deliberately undertook actions that they knew were wrong and they undertook those actions with the intent of escalating violence and confrontation. And then both allowed third parties to suffer the consequences of their decisions.
from what i recall, the short shotgun, the fbi/atf was fishing for anything they could to have an excuse to go after him. i believe the undercover guy from the alphabet agency asked him to modify a shotgun for him. under the cover of being a friend with similar views. this was the only thing they could get to justify going after him the way they did.
He was surrounded by armed federal agents and he decided to use his family as human shields.
He was either going to surrender or die.
If he was a true diehard, he would have drawn fire away from his family and gone out in a blaze of "glory."
If he was a rational person he would have told the agents: "If you bring my lawyer here to observe, I will come quietly."
But he did neither: he used his family as human shields, watching two of them die, until he was sure that he was next - then he gave up.
At what point do I cave because my wife and kids depend on my income?
It isn't a matter of caving. Fight them in court (which was one of Weaver's options and which he eventually did, and came out pretty well).
As a man of honor, you would not use your family as pawns.
Not so Weaver.
I'm not sure how anything I wrote amounts to an "endorsement" of what happened or a belief that a government paycheck makes someone "better" than someone who doesn't have one.
Shoot to kill orders for Rules of Engagement
As the investigators found, those rules were based on findings proffered by the ATF to the FBI - findings which the ATF lied about.
The FBI trusted that the ATF was giving them good information - they learned their lesson at great cost.
The ROE did not cover the shooting of his son and wife.
I agree that Deaver was a victim, as were Samuel and Viki.
The ATF was the primary instigator and cause of the whole mess. The whole short barreled shotgun affair was instigated by their informant, and their desire to make Weaver into another informant against his will. The FBI was lied to by the ATF; that led to their over the top response to the Weavers.
It took a stone hearted monster to put that boy’s head in the cross hairs and calmly pull the trigger.
Ooooh....I get it now. The sniper was trying to shoot THROUGH Weaver's wife to hit Weaver. Thanks, I never knew that.
From Weaver’s point of view, government agents had already framed him, harassed him, and murdered his son. He retreated to his home.
Then agents demanded he surrender and come out of the house... He was reluctant because he thought they would kill him.
Then they killed his unarmed wife.
Then, when finally they brought in a third party that Weaver trusted, he surrendered.
There is a considerable history of government agents killing those who they believe killed other government agents. I do not think that Randy Weaver was unreasonable in his fear that he would be killed before he was given a chance to surrender, and that he demanded that a neutral party be their for the surrender.
The Branch Davidians at Waco also demanded a neutral third party (Texas Rangers) and were denied.
be their should be “be there”
“The real victim was William Degan.”
Yea. Vickie Weaver and the kid don’t count cause they are just some of the “little people”.
William Degan, unless you can prove it wrong, never identified himself as law enforcement. Even if he did, he shot first. What would you do if you encountered an armed man trespassing and he shot your dog? Walk over and politely ask if you could be of service? I know cops shooting dogs has become pretty common but that’s pretty over the top. The ATF and FBI caused William Degan’s death. If he would have done the same thing on my property he would be just as dead.
Also, about 15 years ago, an assistant director of ATF admitted that the agency could NOT find half the records on legally possessed machine guns and other devices. This is the same agency whose testimony in court will send you to prison for at least 10 years and levy heavy fines on you for an “unregistered” Title II weapon.
I agree that this is a better argument to make. It is valid to show other rediculous parts of federal gun laws, such as those against short barreled shotguns and rifles.
Samuel Weaver shot at someone. That person returned fire. That doesn't make him a victim. It makes him the loser of a gunfight.
Vicki Weaver could have surrendered at any time. She instead decided to engage in a standoff. Her eyes were wide open.
Of the three, Degan was the one following his obligations in good faith.
No one seems to even remember that he existed - as far as most commentators are concerned, he is the "little people."
Those seem to be even more ridiculous now than they ever were, since all the enemies of the 2A are now arguing that long guns are a greater threat than pistols.
A person can be both the loser of a gunfight and a victim. Your logic there applies to Marshal Degan as well.
The jury found Harris, who admitted to shooting at someone (most likely Degan) not guilty.
The people who should have been held to account for these deaths were those who framed Weaver and set him up, then lied to the FBI (they would be found in the ATF), and the person who gave the "shoot to kill" order from the FBI.
None of them were ever held to account.
That takes some doing.
“Vicki Weaver could have surrendered at any time. She instead decided to engage in a standoff. Her eyes were wide open.”
Now, apparently, running into a house with a baby in your arms is an offense punishable by death.
The story behind that is instructive.
The prosecutors had all the evidence itemized against Harris. Then they provided Harris' counsel with an itemized list that was improperly numbered, making it difficult for Harris' counsel to identify and refute the evidence.
Harris' celebrity attorney, Gerry Spence (an excellent litigator) moved to have all the evidence suppressed as a result.
So the jury saw no physical evidence against Harris, and quite responsibly decided that you cannot convict without any evidence besides the testimony of hostile witnesses.
His acquittal had nothing to do with his actions being justified - that wasn't even an argument Spence tried to make. His only argument was: "there is no evidence."
What does that mean? Degan was doubly victimized by his murderer and by his own employers.
Obviously it isn't.
The point is she knowingly placed herself in jeopardy when she had the option of surrender.
She chose crossfire.
Congressman John Dingell (D-MI) held hearings on this and other botched ATF operations. Dingell is the man responsible for coining the term “jackbooted thugs” to describe the ATF. There was talk at the time of the hearing for abolishing ATF and folding its operations into the FBI. That did not happen because NO federal agency would take the ATF personnel — so bad was their collective reputation. The result was ATF stayed in business and has gone on to more and better blunders.
The federal scum ambushed Harris, young Weaver and their dog, from concealment, on Weaver’s land, killing the dog. They did not identify themselves before firing.
You are defending murderous scum. And I am morally certain that Horiuchi, the filth, took his shot on Vickie and Randy Weaver in an attempt at a twofer to recover his score after missing his first shot at Randy.
It was not conclusive who shot Degan. There were even some reports of him being shot by his own people. Regardless, no one was convicted of Degan's death. However, it is common for the authorities to blame the death of officers on someone other than themselves when they in fact precipitate the event by their own unlawful activity. This was true in Weaver's case.
What the Feds did to the Weaver family was a travesty and the fact that Randy Weaver's family was awarded 3 million in a subsequent lawsuit seems to support that fact.
So, in your opinion, were they just incompetent, did they think they were above the law, or did they not want the scrutiny of having the evidence displayed and refuted in court?
If a govt gulag is our future, the agents reading this thread have already chosen the head kapo.
I think it was some combination of incompetence and entitlement.
I think that is uncalled for. By all accounts, Degan was a good guy. He was lied to and placed in a bad position by his superiors and the people who lied to them.
He was another victim of the ATF.
“what the government did at Ruby Ridge was evil plain and simple.”
Tie that up with Waco, and you have The Man telling you how it is all around, and The Man will kill you just to make sure you know.
I saw the Waco film. That was outright murder.
Not his land, not from concealment, and not scum.
And I am morally certain that Horiuchi
Of course. I forgot that you have the power to read minds.
Take it down a notch, Jackson.
Don’t have to read his mind. He killed an innocent kid in cold blood. In defiance of his ROE.
The surviving members of the Weaver family filed a wrongful death suit. To avoid trial and a possibly higher settlement, the federal government awarded Randy Weaver a $100,000 settlement and his three daughters $1 million each in August 1995. In the out-of-court settlement, the government did not admit any wrongdoing in the deaths of Sammy and Vicki Weaver.
Those who don’t remember “correctly” are doomed to repeat it.