Posted on 03/20/2022 6:10:45 AM PDT by Travis McGee
To understand current events, you need to understand history, and to understand history, you need to study the maps. I've been doing this for a while, and now I have enough of them to make a Ukraine map study thread. Naturally, your opinion may differ, but maps are history frozen in time. In an important way, maps are the historical record.
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Russia purchased Crimea from the Ottoman Empire in the same manner that the USA purchased Alaska from Russia. (In gold, FWIW.)
If Russian Crimea has to be handed over to Ukraine, again, then for sure we have to give Hawaii back to the Hawaiians. Our annexation of Hawaii was done by brute military force, under the policy of "Manifest Destiny." We just outright stole Hawaii, because we wanted it due to its strategic location.
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By all means, the independent nation of Ukraine MUST be kept together, within its modern borders, which go all the way back in time to 1991!
Better to escalate to Nuclear World War Three, than to alter these ancient unchangeable historic borders.
/sarcasm
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How would America react if, during a national economic depression, in the future a stronger China formed an alliance with Canada, Mexico, Cuba and Latin America, and moved troops, tanks and missiles, country by country, closer to the borders of the USA? This is how Russia views NATO in the post-Soviet era.
You can scoff, and protest that NATO is purely a defensive alliance....but tell that to the Serbians, the Libyans, and the Afghans. And don't forget Kosovo, carved out of Serbia by NATO.
The Russians are now faced with American "defensive" ABMs in Poland and Romania. What is the difference between an ABM and a MRBM? Its launch angle, and its warhead.
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I realize they don't teach much history in American schools, but the "Great Patriotic War" map shown below is extremely real to Russians, and very much on their minds. The USSR came within a whisker of total defeat by Germany in 1942. If the Nazis had not been stopped at Stalingrad, Germany would have cut off the Soviet Union's oil supplies, and total defeat and racial extermination would have rapidly followed.
Ukraine joining NATO, with Article 5 guarantees, would mean that American, German and British troops, tanks and missiles would be staged directly against the heart of Russia. The NATO tanks would be just days from cutting off Russia's oil. Missiles would be bare minutes from Moscow. At least the German Nazis had to fight hard to get across Poland and Ukraine to get to Stalingrad.
Ukraine in NATO means that the next time, European military forces will already be located in an advanced attack position. Yes, NATO. Russians are very aware of history. Last time, the Germans were joined in their attack by French, "Viking," and Ukrainian SS divisions, as well as the Spanish Condor Legion, Romanians, Italians and other national military formations. So yes, in NATO, Russians see the potential for a reprise of 1942, but this time with NATO getting a head start by being pre-positioned in Ukraine.
You can laugh, you can scoff, but trust me, this is no laughing matter to the Russians.
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As shown in the last map, much of Ukraine's strategic importance is still related to energy transportation.
Why do you think Hunter Biden was paid millions of dollars to be on the board of a Ukrainian natural gas conglomerate? Why did the sons of John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, Mitt Romney and other American elites all have their snouts in the trough in Ukraine?
It's about controlling the distribution of energy from Russia to Europe, and mega billions of dollars are involved for the players in charge.
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So who believes that possible escalation to World War 3, with nukes involved, is a better solution than a national divorce in Ukraine?
Yugoslavia was created on the map from whole cloth by politicians in 1918 at the Versailles Conference, and it broke apart into separate nations during a bloody civil war in the 1990s, but at least nuclear weapons were not involved.
Czechoslovakia was also created by politicians in 1918, and after the fall of the Soviet Union it amicably divorced to become the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
Ukraine, invented by V.I. Lenin as the Ukraine SSR within the Soviet Union around the same time as Versailles, is also an artificially invented political construct. The entire history of the current version of Ukraine as an independent nation goes back only to 1991, and the collapse of the USSR.
So which is a better solution? A national divorce, or risking World War 3, with nukes?
Isn't it too late for that right now, though? As of right now, if Russia stops fighting, there will be no fighting; if Ukraine stops fighting, there will be no Ukraine, as we know it.
“Isn’t it too late for that right now, though?”
Nope. All it takes is for the US to back off, let Ukraine back off, and Russia backs off.
It is never too late to sue/negotiate for peace.
How does the Holodomor factor into the history of the area?
You Sir, have a keen mind!
Thank you for this straightforward presentation.
Pretty much understood the reasons for the invasion to begin with though these maps give a much better historical perspective. Not many are willing to learn from history thereby dooming themselves to epic failure.
Thanks for the additional education.
That’s worth WW3 with nukes, to you?
The whole world is in knots trying to avoid WW3. And is, say, keeping Poland entirely intact worth it? Russia has it's own perspective on igniting WW3 to take into consideration, too.
Such times we live in, oh Lord.
Bump
Ukraine actually predates Russia, dating back to the 8th Century as Kievan Rus. Even Pooty-Poot admits that. Moscow was nothing but an unpopulated spot along a river for another three hundred years.
Russia began as a client state of the Mongols with the creation of the Grand Principality of Moscow in 1263. The Rurik Dynasty that ruled in Ukraine had controlled lands of today's Russia until then.
After the Mongol period what is now modern day Ukraine was controlled by a succession of foreign powers. In 1571 the Crimean Khanate, a remnant of the Golden Horde, actually sacked Moscow. So much for the national unity of the Motherland, I guess.
The analogy to the purchase of Alaska is a particularly weak one. Russian control of Ukrainian lands did not occur as a result of a simple peacetime transaction. It was through a series of wars between Russia and the Ottoman Empire, Poland, Sweden, and various Tatar and Cossack states. In 1783, Russia violated the 1774 Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca that guaranteed non-interference of both Russia and the Ottoman Empire in the affairs Crimea, and added Crimea to its empire. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Catherine the Great encouraged German immigration to dilute the dominance of Turkish people in Ukraine, and later the Czars continued to suppress the Ukrainian language and culture as part of their Russification policy.
For four years after the collapse of the Russian Empire various factions fought over control of Ukraine with the Soviets eventually taking most of Eastern Ukraine while the western part was absorbed by Poland. Eastern Ukraine became one of the four founding republics of the Soviet Union, with the right on paper to withdraw at any time, a decision that Moscow would never actually allow of course. But technically, Ukraine was NEVER officially part of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic.
Western Ukraine was taken back by force in WWII with the defeat of the Germans in 1945. We know the rest. The USSR collapsed, Ukraine became independent, and gave up its nukes for guarantees of territorial integrity, which Putin of course ignored just as Catherine the Great did hundreds of years before.
If you're going to use history as a justification, it can be used to support any point of view. The whole history of Europe is one of shifting maps, constantly changing territorial demands, and claims and counter claims of imminent invasions by imaginary boogieman. Today its NATO, tomorrow who will it be? Lithuania, Estonia, Poland?
Only one thing is undeniable. Today Russia is the only one using war to take land for itself and bolster the glory of its autocratic ruler, as the country has done for hundreds of years.
“The sovereign nation of Ukraine”.
A statement for and by stupid people.
That doesn’t mean it will be effective...I suspect the next thing shaping up will be a coup in Russia, fomented by western oligarchs. Or maybe it will be a putsch and Putin will blame the whole thing on “reactionary elements” working with Western criminals (e.g. look at the biowarfare lab accusation) deliberately trying to screw things up to cover their nefarious deeds. That would provide cover for hasty withdrawals and reconciliation. Heck, he might even fake a putsch as cover and “save” Russia in the bargain...
Far more likely is interminable morass, e.g. ex-Yugoslavia.
It is never too late to sue/negotiate for peace.
If only it were that simple. A lot of damage has been done, a lot of territory is in purgatory. Untangling the situation would be/will be a nightmare in itself.
Stupid and/or corrupt minds believe Ukraine is an actual country.
The entire world, the entire EU, the entire US knows Ukraine is a country.
You 3% LiberalTarians are the exceptions.
Stupid and/or corrupt minds believe Ukraine is an actual country.
“Far more likely is interminable morass, e.g. ex-Yugoslavia.”
You could be right, but the idea that we can interfere then claim innocent in light of evidence to the contrary is telling of how far gone and corrupt our own government has become. This could affect us right here.
“Untangling the situation would be/will be a nightmare in itself.”
Well, the alternative is world war as one corrupt country tries to cover its tracks after another, the USA included. Unless Ukraine and Russia get together, the elites will continue to exploit this situation to cover their tracks.
You say that is my position. It is not and it’s feckless of you to say so
Going back in history to establish to days borders is pointless
It is on par with returning to your ancestors home and turning the US over to the original tribes
I do that too.
“outmanned and outgunned they are putting up one hell of a fight”
...according to the same Mockingbird Media who told us vaxxes are “safe and effective” and the evil Russkies rigged the election of 2016 but the election of 2020 proved that “democracy works” and the greatest threat facing the US is not open borders but rather “white nationalism”.
If you want to believe congenital liars go for it....
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