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Probing Question: What happened before the Big Bang?
Pennsylvania State University ^ | 03 August 2006 | Barbara Kennedy

Posted on 08/04/2006 4:26:21 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

The question of what happened before the Big Bang long has frustrated cosmologists, both amateur and professional.

Though Einstein's theory of general relativity does an excellent job of describing the universe almost back to its beginning, near the Big Bang matter becomes so dense that relativity breaks down, says Penn State physicist Abhay Ashtekar. "Beyond that point, we need to apply quantum tools that were not available to Einstein."

Now Ashtekar and two of his post-doctoral researchers, Tomasz Pawlowski and Parmpreet Singh, have done just that. Using a theory called loop quantum gravity, they have developed a mathematical model that skates right up to the Big Bang -- and steps through it. On the other side, Ashtekar says, exists another universe with space-time geometry similar to our own, except that instead of expanding, it is shrinking. "In place of a classical Big Bang, there is in fact a quantum Bounce," he says.

Loop quantum gravity, one of the leading approaches to the unification of general relativity with quantum physics, was pioneered at the Institute of Gravitational Physics and Geometry at Penn State, which Ashtekar directs. The theory posits that space-time geometry itself has a discrete "atomic" structure, Ashtekar explains. Instead of the familiar space-time continuum, the fabric of space is made up of one-dimensional quantum threads. Near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn, and these quantum properties cause gravity to become repulsive, rather than attractive.

While the idea of another universe existing prior to the Big Bang has been proposed before, he adds, this is the first mathematical description that systematically establishes its existence and deduces its space-time geometry.

"Our initial work assumes a homogenous model of our universe," Ashtekar acknowledges. "However, it has given us confidence in the underlying ideas of loop quantum gravity. We will continue to refine the model to better portray the universe as we know it and to better understand the features of quantum gravity."

***

Abhay Ashtekar is holder of the Eberly family chair in physics and director of the Institute for Gravitational Physics and Geometry in the Eberly College of Science. He can be reached at ava1@psu.edu.

The finding reported above was published in Physical Review Letters in May 2006. The research was sponsored by the National Science Foundation, Alexander von Humboldt Foundation, and the Penn State Eberly College of Science.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: bewareofluddites; bigbang; bloodbath; cosmology; fakeatheist; fascistfrannie; generalchat; genesisidolater; goddooditamen; idiotswithgrants; juniorstantrum; origins; phpap; prematurepanspermia; runningwolfspout; stringtheory
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To: em2vn
What did the singularity exist in, nothingness?

The singularity didn't exist in anything, because "existence" implies time and time itself was created along with space during the Big Bang (and of course there was no space for it to exist "in" either).

61 posted on 08/04/2006 7:58:34 AM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: pageonetoo

The atheist's universe is best explained as "The Seinfeld Theory".

You have nothing. You take nothing and make something.

How was it made?

From nothing. It just happened.

What did it do?

Nothing. It just happened.

Well, what does it do now?

Nothing. It just happens. When it happens, then you have something.

But, we have to have something?

We do. We have nothing. That nothing is something.

That makes sense, doesn't it? (extreme sarcasm here)

Let's see, we have a great big ball of matter. No laws of physics, as we know them now, apply to this ball of matter.

Some unknown, undefined, unmeasurable, unreproducable, unexplainable event happened.

That event gave us all the laws of physics as we know them now, because we know that the giant ball of matter COULD NOT HAVE EXISTED AND/OR COME INTO IT'S CURRENT STATE UNDER THE CURRENT LAWS OF PHYSICS.

We have spent centuries, using the most intelligent people on earth, perfecting our sciences so that we can precisely measure, quantify, and understand these laws, yet there is no rational explanation for how we got them.

And the atheists call US zealots?


62 posted on 08/04/2006 8:01:51 AM PDT by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right....)
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To: doc30
The Big Bang was an explosion OF space, not of things in space. ...More space is coming into existence between things.

And more time is coming into existence as well. Indeed, it is the expansion of time-space that moves time along. Stop the expansion of time-space and time would stop.

63 posted on 08/04/2006 8:01:58 AM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: sirchtruth
LOL! Well, did time exist? ...and for the umteenth time, how did something explode from nothing?

Simple math:

(Something)+(-Something)=Zero.

If you start with nothing and you have the inherent capability to create Something and the negative of Something (i.e. -Something) then you can indeed create Something from Nothing. Of course to prove that this actually happened you need to go out and find that -Something. We've seen bits and pieces (of anti-matter) but not, as far as I know, a full up universe full of the stuff.

64 posted on 08/04/2006 8:05:12 AM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: FreedomCalls
Stop the expansion of time-space and time would stop.

Time will stop for you soon enough! The only thing that has demonstrated the "skills" to manipulate your "science", can best be described as God. Your mileage may vary.

Scince requires evidence, not just theory. Why should you even have this debate?


65 posted on 08/04/2006 8:10:33 AM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: true_blue_texican
It's easier than all of that. There was no Big Bang. The Universe has existed forever and will continue to exist forever.

Then what was that "noise" Penzias and Wilson heard in 1964?


66 posted on 08/04/2006 8:11:30 AM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Fake but Accurate": NY Times)
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To: sirchtruth

Faith :)


67 posted on 08/04/2006 8:14:16 AM PDT by Unassuaged (I have shocking data relevant to the conversation!)
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To: Loud Mime

Buckaroo Bansai, I believe.


68 posted on 08/04/2006 8:16:17 AM PDT by Unassuaged (I have shocking data relevant to the conversation!)
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To: Bryan24

Well put!


69 posted on 08/04/2006 8:21:36 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (More and more churches are nada scriptura.)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan

general background noise. BB is posited on our universe being controlled by gravity. It pretty much ignores the stronger forces including magnetism and electricity. Those forces play a much greater role in shaping the universe than General Relativity claims. Magnetism and electricity generate radio waves. Our whole universe is filled with transmitters that have radiated radio waves forever: background noise.


70 posted on 08/04/2006 8:21:40 AM PDT by true_blue_texican
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To: PatrickHenry; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; cornelis
[ "Beyond that point, we need to apply quantum tools that were not available to Einstein." ]

QM calls into question whether the big bang ever banged..
But really a big bang is pretty convient.. It could be merely a house of mirrors ugh.. branes/frames.. No bang at all just brane overlap.. You know just strings wandering across branes as in a dream.. from one reality to another.. But the big bang does have a certain 4th of July excitement to it.. like a universal holiday..

71 posted on 08/04/2006 8:24:21 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: doc30
The Big Bang was an explosion OF space, not of things in space.

Space without matter is an oxymoron.


72 posted on 08/04/2006 8:25:04 AM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Fake but Accurate": NY Times)
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To: PatrickHenry

I've never been able to figure out how something got created out of nothing. And I've never been able to figure out how "God" began. It is beyond my understanding as we naturally believe in a beginning of everything. So one is left with religion which I find wanting. Too much for my pea brain to assimilate.


73 posted on 08/04/2006 8:25:41 AM PDT by RichardW
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To: exit82

Allowing inflation, where huge expansion was initiated before the velocity of light was established.


74 posted on 08/04/2006 8:30:47 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: agere_contra
The odds are literally infinitesimal that our Universe just happened to get it right. The religious theory that the Universe was designed - and designed for us - is strongly supported by the extraordinary unlikelihood of the Universe being able to support us.

The usual (atheistic) defence against the Anthropic Principle is to take refuge in the tired Star-Trek trope of there being quadrillions of parallel Universes, one of which is ours.

It's not atheistic, it's common sense because it may very well be true. Outside creator, and multiverse are BOTH explainations that fit our observations of this universe. Either could be true and there is nothing to indicate one is more certain than the other. So you can't write off one as "tired" and "unscientific" without doing so to the other.

75 posted on 08/04/2006 8:32:07 AM PDT by bobdsmith
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To: hosepipe
The universal holiday of manifest success!

Just imagine the uncounted millions required to hold the earth's axis on a proper toggling tilt. Whoa, boys, too far! Ooops, back again! Wait, where's the pole! Zut!

Do they count the years A.D., B.C., C.E. ???? This is absolute time when you need it!

76 posted on 08/04/2006 8:45:57 AM PDT by cornelis
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To: true_blue_texican
general background noise. BB is posited on our universe being controlled by gravity. It pretty much ignores the stronger forces including magnetism and electricity. Those forces play a much greater role in shaping the universe than General Relativity claims. Magnetism and electricity generate radio waves. Our whole universe is filled with transmitters that have radiated radio waves forever: background noise.

The cosmic microwave background is not noise. It happens at a specific frequency and is detectable above the background noise caused by the effects you list. Gravity is the dominant force on cosmological scales. Electromagnetism is very weak on that scale and has virtually effect on the masses (i.e. stars, planets, comets, galaxies, dust clouds). An understanding of basic physics would let you know this.

77 posted on 08/04/2006 8:48:54 AM PDT by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what and Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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To: sirchtruth
LOL! Well, did time exist? ...and for the umteenth time, how did something explode from nothing?

Since the definition of time is the measurement of intervals between events in a continuum, therefore before the Big Bang, before there were any events, there were no intervals between events, therefore, there was no time. Only God existed (exists). Therefore, God exists outside of time. (Except when God the Son entered into time to become a human being.)

78 posted on 08/04/2006 8:49:21 AM PDT by guinnessman
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To: RichardW; PatrickHenry
I spent a couple years in the South china Sea, and others, circa 1967. I remember laying in the net guards for our DASH deck {DD-877). They extended over the sea. At night, we would lay there and ponder eternity.

We had some fabulous discussions, as we looked at the myriads of stars and celestial wonders. Shooting stars were echoed by the waters.

As the Destroyer slid silently through the water, the roiling caused an effervescent glow alongside our vessel. It was bright enough to illuminate the various snakes and creatures that inhabited the depths.

All in all, we decided it was a little over our heads!

In the end, it is simply faith that will get you through to eternity. Some people think theirs' lays in a grave...


79 posted on 08/04/2006 8:49:38 AM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
Space without matter is an oxymoron.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The universe is mostly empty space. You don't need matter to have space. Heck, even an atom is mostly empty space.

80 posted on 08/04/2006 8:51:19 AM PDT by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what and Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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