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A Mathematician's View of Evolution
The Mathematical Intelligencer ^ | Granville Sewell

Posted on 09/20/2006 9:51:34 AM PDT by SirLinksalot

A Mathematician's View of Evolution

Granville Sewell

Mathematics Dept.

University of Texas El Paso

The Mathematical Intelligencer 22, no. 4 (2000), pp5-7

Copyright held by Springer Verlag, NY, LLC

In 1996, Lehigh University biochemist Michael Behe published a book entitled "Darwin's Black Box" [Free Press], whose central theme is that every living cell is loaded with features and biochemical processes which are "irreducibly complex"--that is, they require the existence of numerous complex components, each essential for function. Thus, these features and processes cannot be explained by gradual Darwinian improvements, because until all the components are in place, these assemblages are completely useless, and thus provide no selective advantage. Behe spends over 100 pages describing some of these irreducibly complex biochemical systems in detail, then summarizes the results of an exhaustive search of the biochemical literature for Darwinian explanations. He concludes that while biochemistry texts often pay lip-service to the idea that natural selection of random mutations can explain everything in the cell, such claims are pure "bluster", because "there is no publication in the scientific literature that describes how molecular evolution of any real, complex, biochemical system either did occur or even might have occurred."

When Dr. Behe was at the University of Texas El Paso in May of 1997 to give an invited talk, I told him that I thought he would find more support for his ideas in mathematics, physics and computer science departments than in his own field. I know a good many mathematicians, physicists and computer scientists who, like me, are appalled that Darwin's explanation for the development of life is so widely accepted in the life sciences. Few of them ever speak out or write on this issue, however--perhaps because they feel the question is simply out of their domain. However, I believe there are two central arguments against Darwinism, and both seem to be most readily appreciated by those in the more mathematical sciences.

1. The cornerstone of Darwinism is the idea that major (complex) improvements can be built up through many minor improvements; that the new organs and new systems of organs which gave rise to new orders, classes and phyla developed gradually, through many very minor improvements. We should first note that the fossil record does not support this idea, for example, Harvard paleontologist George Gaylord Simpson ["The History of Life," in Volume I of "Evolution after Darwin," University of Chicago Press, 1960] writes:

"It is a feature of the known fossil record that most taxa appear abruptly. They are not, as a rule, led up to by a sequence of almost imperceptibly changing forerunners such as Darwin believed should be usual in evolution...This phenomenon becomes more universal and more intense as the hierarchy of categories is ascended. Gaps among known species are sporadic and often small. Gaps among known orders, classes and phyla are systematic and almost always large. These peculiarities of the record pose one of the most important theoretical problems in the whole history of life: Is the sudden appearance of higher categories a phenomenon of evolution or of the record only, due to sampling bias and other inadequacies?"

An April, 1982, Life Magazine article (excerpted from Francis Hitching's book, "The Neck of the Giraffe: Where Darwin Went Wrong") contains the following report:

"When you look for links between major groups of animals, they simply aren't there...'Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life', writes David M. Raup, a curator of Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History, 'what geologists of Darwin's time and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the fossil sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence, then abruptly disappear.' These are not negligible gaps. They are periods, in all the major evolutionary transitions, when immense physiological changes had to take place."

Even among biologists, the idea that new organs, and thus higher categories, could develop gradually through tiny improvements has often been challenged. How could the "survival of the fittest" guide the development of new organs through their initial useless stages, during which they obviously present no selective advantage? (This is often referred to as the "problem of novelties".) Or guide the development of entire new systems, such as nervous, circulatory, digestive, respiratory and reproductive systems, which would require the simultaneous development of several new interdependent organs, none of which is useful, or provides any selective advantage, by itself? French biologist Jean Rostand, for example, wrote ["A Biologist's View," Wm. Heinemann Ltd. 1956]:

"It does not seem strictly impossible that mutations should have introduced into the animal kingdom the differences which exist between one species and the next...hence it is very tempting to lay also at their door the differences between classes, families and orders, and, in short, the whole of evolution. But it is obvious that such an extrapolation involves the gratuitous attribution to the mutations of the past of a magnitude and power of innovation much greater than is shown by those of today."

Behe's book is primarily a challenge to this cornerstone of Darwinism at the microscopic level. Although we may not be familiar with the complex biochemical systems discussed in this book, I believe mathematicians are well qualified to appreciate the general ideas involved. And although an analogy is only an analogy, perhaps the best way to understand Behe's argument is by comparing the development of the genetic code of life with the development of a computer program. Suppose an engineer attempts to design a structural analysis computer program, writing it in a machine language that is totally unknown to him. He simply types out random characters at his keyboard, and periodically runs tests on the program to recognize and select out chance improvements when they occur. The improvements are permanently incorporated into the program while the other changes are discarded. If our engineer continues this process of random changes and testing for a long enough time, could he eventually develop a sophisticated structural analysis program? (Of course, when intelligent humans decide what constitutes an "improvement", this is really artificial selection, so the analogy is far too generous.)

If a billion engineers were to type at the rate of one random character per second, there is virtually no chance that any one of them would, given the 4.5 billion year age of the Earth to work on it, accidentally duplicate a given 20-character improvement. Thus our engineer cannot count on making any major improvements through chance alone. But could he not perhaps make progress through the accumulation of very small improvements? The Darwinist would presumably say, yes, but to anyone who has had minimal programming experience this idea is equally implausible.

Major improvements to a computer program often require the addition or modification of hundreds of interdependent lines, no one of which makes any sense, or results in any improvement, when added by itself. Even the smallest improvements usually require adding several new lines. It is conceivable that a programmer unable to look ahead more than 5 or 6 characters at a time might be able to make some very slight improvements to a computer program, but it is inconceivable that he could design anything sophisticated without the ability to plan far ahead and to guide his changes toward that plan.

If archeologists of some future society were to unearth the many versions of my PDE solver, PDE2D , which I have produced over the last 20 years, they would certainly note a steady increase in complexity over time, and they would see many obvious similarities between each new version and the previous one. In the beginning it was only able to solve a single linear, steady-state, 2D equation in a polygonal region. Since then, PDE2D has developed many new abilities: it now solves nonlinear problems, time-dependent and eigenvalue problems, systems of simultaneous equations, and it now handles general curved 2D regions.

Over the years, many new types of graphical output capabilities have evolved, and in 1991 it developed an interactive preprocessor, and more recently PDE2D has adapted to 3D and 1D problems. An archeologist attempting to explain the evolution of this computer program in terms of many tiny improvements might be puzzled to find that each of these major advances (new classes or phyla??) appeared suddenly in new versions; for example, the ability to solve 3D problems first appeared in version 4.0. Less major improvements (new families or orders??) appeared suddenly in new subversions, for example, the ability to solve 3D problems with periodic boundary conditions first appeared in version 5.6. In fact, the record of PDE2D's development would be similar to the fossil record, with large gaps where major new features appeared, and smaller gaps where minor ones appeared. That is because the multitude of intermediate programs between versions or subversions which the archeologist might expect to find never existed, because-- for example--none of the changes I made for edition 4.0 made any sense, or provided PDE2D any advantage whatever in solving 3D problems (or anything else) until hundreds of lines had been added.

Whether at the microscopic or macroscopic level, major, complex, evolutionary advances, involving new features (as opposed to minor, quantitative changes such as an increase in the length of the giraffe's neck*, or the darkening of the wings of a moth, which clearly could occur gradually) also involve the addition of many interrelated and interdependent pieces. These complex advances, like those made to computer programs, are not always "irreducibly complex"--sometimes there are intermediate useful stages. But just as major improvements to a computer program cannot be made 5 or 6 characters at a time, certainly no major evolutionary advance is reducible to a chain of tiny improvements, each small enough to be bridged by a single random mutation.

2. The other point is very simple, but also seems to be appreciated only by more mathematically-oriented people. It is that to attribute the development of life on Earth to natural selection is to assign to it--and to it alone, of all known natural "forces"--the ability to violate the second law of thermodynamics and to cause order to arise from disorder. It is often argued that since the Earth is not a closed system--it receives energy from the Sun, for example-- the second law is not applicable in this case. It is true that order can increase locally, if the local increase is compensated by a decrease elsewhere, ie, an open system can be taken to a less probable state by importing order from outside. For example, we could transport a truckload of encyclopedias and computers to the moon, thereby increasing the order on the moon, without violating the second law. But the second law of thermodynamics--at least the underlying principle behind this law--simply says that natural forces do not cause extremely improbable things to happen**, and it is absurd to argue that because the Earth receives energy from the Sun, this principle was not violated here when the original rearrangement of atoms into encyclopedias and computers occurred.

The biologist studies the details of natural history, and when he looks at the similarities between two species of butterflies, he is understandably reluctant to attribute the small differences to the supernatural. But the mathematician or physicist is likely to take the broader view. I imagine visiting the Earth when it was young and returning now to find highways with automobiles on them, airports with jet airplanes, and tall buildings full of complicated equipment, such as televisions, telephones and computers. Then I imagine the construction of a gigantic computer model which starts with the initial conditions on Earth 4 billion years ago and tries to simulate the effects that the four known forces of physics (the gravitational, electromagnetic and strong and weak nuclear forces) would have on every atom and every subatomic particle on our planet (perhaps using random number generators to model quantum uncertainties!). If we ran such a simulation out to the present day, would it predict that the basic forces of Nature would reorganize the basic particles of Nature into libraries full of encyclopedias, science texts and novels, nuclear power plants, aircraft carriers with supersonic jets parked on deck, and computers connected to laser printers, CRTs and keyboards? If we graphically displayed the positions of the atoms at the end of the simulation, would we find that cars and trucks had formed, or that supercomputers had arisen? Certainly we would not, and I do not believe that adding sunlight to the model would help much. Clearly something extremely improbable has happened here on our planet, with the origin and development of life, and especially with the development of human consciousness and creativity.

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footnotes

*Ironically, W.E.Loennig's article "The Evolution of the Long-necked Giraffe," has since convinced me that even this feature could not, and did not, arise gradually.

**An unfortunate choice of words, for which I was severely chastised. I should have said, the underlying principle behind the second law is that natural forces do not do macroscopically describable things which are extremely improbable from the microscopic point of view. See "A Second Look at the Second Law," for a more thorough treatment of this point.

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Granville Sewell completed his PhD at Purdue University. He has subsequently been employed by (in chronological order) Universidad Simon Bolivar (Caracas), Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Purdue University, IMSL (Houston), The University of Texas Center for High Performance Computing (Austin), and the University of Texas El Paso; he spent Fall 1999 at Universidad Nacional de Tucuman in Argentina on a Fulbright grant. He has written three books on numerical analysis.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: crevolist; darwin; darwinsblackbox; evolution; godsgravesglyphs; granvillesewell; id; idjunkscience; idscam; intelligentdesign; irreduciblycomplex; mathematician; michaelbehe
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1 posted on 09/20/2006 9:51:36 AM PDT by SirLinksalot
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To: SirLinksalot

This is a statement of the main points of why a lot of mathematicians, when they consider the evidence, tend to be skeptical about the Darwinian theory of evolution.


2 posted on 09/20/2006 9:55:44 AM PDT by SirLinksalot
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To: SirLinksalot

I'll make some popcorn.


3 posted on 09/20/2006 10:01:30 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The broken wall, the burning roof and tower. And Agamemnon dead.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

10...9...8...

(countdown to the arrival of the militant anti-Creationists)


4 posted on 09/20/2006 10:02:56 AM PDT by xjcsa (John McCain: sacrificing the lives of American women and children to save American soldiers.)
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To: SirLinksalot

If evolution is an ongoing process, and all living things start at the same point, then by now there should be not only sentient humans, but fish, birds and reptiles, etc. Why would just one of the myriad species evolve to a superior position, and not the others......


5 posted on 09/20/2006 10:05:01 AM PDT by Red Badger (Is Castro dead yet?........)
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To: SirLinksalot

Bookmarked - thanks for posting.


6 posted on 09/20/2006 10:06:24 AM PDT by the anti-liberal (OUR schools are damaging OUR children)
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To: SirLinksalot

$1,000,000 reward to the first evolutionist to get life to evolve from any sort of primordial soup in a reproducible fashion. Or shut up.


7 posted on 09/20/2006 10:08:26 AM PDT by WriteOn (Truth)
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To: SirLinksalot

IMHO, random genetic mutation is almost certainly not the change agent of evolution. I'm not saying I know what is, but the evidence is against this.


8 posted on 09/20/2006 10:09:26 AM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: SirLinksalot

It is amusing to watch all this dialog about irreduceable complexity, as if it had suddenly been "discovered" by the Intelligent Design "movement." William Paley (1743-1805) spoke of this very thing in his Natural Theology, showing how ecological interrelationships and interdependences made no sense under evolutionary assumptions; but he did not have the tools then to extend his argument all the way into topics like mitochondrial processes, the intricacies of repair and replication of DNA or RNA etc.

Evolutionists used to reject the teleological argument (design logic) until, they said, someone could show that certain natural assemblages in nature had a machinelike quality. Modern biochemistry has now shone exactly this--over, and over, and over.


9 posted on 09/20/2006 10:10:20 AM PDT by Phantom4
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To: Red Badger
If evolution is an ongoing process, and all living things start at the same point, then by now there should be not only sentient humans, but fish, birds and reptiles, etc. Why would just one of the myriad species evolve to a superior position, and not the others......

I am not an evolutionist, but from an evolutionary standpoint the only criterion for "superior" is living long enough to produce offspring. From that standpoint, cockroaches are our eual and need not necessarily "evolve" further until something changes in the environment to require adaptation.
10 posted on 09/20/2006 10:12:07 AM PDT by sittnick (There is no salvation in politics.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Make mine non-fat kettle corn please!


11 posted on 09/20/2006 10:14:11 AM PDT by RobRoy (Islam is more dangerous to the world now that Naziism was in 1937.)
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To: SirKit

Ping!


12 posted on 09/20/2006 10:14:48 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: WriteOn

"$1,000,000 reward to the first evolutionist to get life to evolve from any sort of primordial soup in a reproducible fashion. Or shut up."

I'll take option two. I will become an evolutionist this afternoon - then I will shut up. I will email the bank account number into which to deposit the funds.

And thanks!

Wait. If I become an evolutionist, option two is not possible. Never mind...


13 posted on 09/20/2006 10:17:30 AM PDT by RobRoy (Islam is more dangerous to the world now that Naziism was in 1937.)
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To: WriteOn
$1,000,000 reward to the first evolutionist to get life to evolve from any sort of primordial soup in a reproducible fashion. Or shut up.

What if he prays for success and gets it? =]

14 posted on 09/20/2006 10:17:45 AM PDT by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: xjcsa

Never mind them, I'll do their work for them:

"The author of this piece is an idiot, with a diploma from a degree mill, who is such a fool, he probably couldn't even get a job teaching at Bob Jones."

I'm sure they will have some invective of their own, but that should give them a good start.

How utterly predictible. Yawn.


15 posted on 09/20/2006 10:18:31 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: SirLinksalot

Evolution: The Hopeful Monster Theory :-)


16 posted on 09/20/2006 10:19:25 AM PDT by RoadTest (- as he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit - so it is now.)
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To: SirLinksalot
Even among biologists, the idea that new organs, and thus higher categories, could develop gradually through tiny improvements has often been challenged. How could the "survival of the fittest" guide the development of new organs through their initial useless stages, during which they obviously present no selective advantage?

The problem is that this is not an issue of the evidence or the facts but the stories that connect the evidence and the facts. That is, can I concoct a credible explaination for the facts I see?

The answer is, of course I can. And when I do, I will concoct one that fits with my worldview because that's the framework from which I view the evidence.

Today's scientists try to pretend they have no worldview and therefore the stories are as valid as the evidence or the facts they use to construct them. If they want to make their research really useful, they will admit the worldview at the start. This gives them both a coherent framework within which to work, and a view of that framework from which to critique their work. Both are invaluable in moving from the story to the truth.

Shalom.

17 posted on 09/20/2006 10:19:38 AM PDT by ArGee (The Ring must not be allowed to fall into Hillary's hands!)
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To: SirLinksalot
If a billion engineers were to type at the rate of one random character per second, there is virtually no chance that any one of them would, given the 4.5 billion year age of the Earth to work on it, accidentally duplicate a given 20-character improvement.

There's the flaw in his argument. He's demanding a specific change, and saying it either requires long odds or teleology. He's right...but that's not how evolution works.

In the real world, random changes occur first, and only afterwards is it selected based upon fitness. But fit for what purpose? Even that is unspecified before the change occurs! Organisms either find uses for the changes that their given, or they don't. If they find a use, and it helps the organism survive, then the change looks somehow preordained, and the odds against it seem long. But it's only teleological in the Pee-wee Herman sense: "I meant to do that!"

18 posted on 09/20/2006 10:20:10 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Red Badger
If evolution is an ongoing process, and all living things start at the same point, then by now there should be not only sentient humans, but fish, birds and reptiles, etc. Why would just one of the myriad species evolve to a superior position, and not the others......

Your definition of "superior" is biased. Intelligence is not necessarily an advantage. If deer devoted a higher percentage of their bodymass to their brains (and became smarter), then a lower percentage of their bodymass would be devoted to muscle and digestion.

That may not seem like a big deal, but a smart deer that can't outrun a wolf is dinner. Moreover, a smart deer that doesn't have a gut complex enough to digest cellulose isn't going to survive. If you look, you'll see that extant species have evolved to reach "superior positions" -- biologists call that finding a niche. But that niche can take any number of forms.

19 posted on 09/20/2006 10:21:02 AM PDT by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: sittnick

Okay, then why did humans continue to evolve if there was no impetus to do so?.......


20 posted on 09/20/2006 10:22:37 AM PDT by Red Badger (Is Castro dead yet?........)
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To: ConservativeDude
"The author of this piece is an idiot, with a diploma from a degree mill, who is such a fool, he probably couldn't even get a job teaching at Bob Jones."

Let's cut that avenue of the critics' attack early:

Granville Sewell completed his PhD at Purdue University. He has subsequently been employed by (in chronological order) Universidad Simon Bolivar (Caracas), Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Purdue University, IMSL (Houston), The University of Texas Center for High Performance Computing (Austin), and the University of Texas El Paso; he spent Fall 1999 at Universidad Nacional de Tucuman in Argentina on a Fulbright grant. He has written three books on numerical analysis.
21 posted on 09/20/2006 10:24:20 AM PDT by Lucky Dog
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To: Red Badger

And if early humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes? Why did they not evolve even slightly over the millions of years it supposedly took humans to evolve?


22 posted on 09/20/2006 10:26:23 AM PDT by ryan71
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To: SirLinksalot
Only you and Dembski, if you aren't the same person. And if you aren't Dembski, then you are a plagiarist.
23 posted on 09/20/2006 10:26:44 AM PDT by js1138 (The absolute seriousness of someone who is terminally deluded.)
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To: SirLinksalot

I'm wondering why this six-year-old publication is in News/Activism. It's not news. I'm betting it should have been put in General/Chat.


24 posted on 09/20/2006 10:28:00 AM PDT by MineralMan
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To: Red Badger
Okay, then why did humans continue to evolve if there was no impetus to do so?.......

Humans continue to evolve and cockroaches continue to evolve. As long as allele frequencies change, evolution is taking place. There are a number of factors currently driving evolution in both humans and cockroaches: DNA mutation, the fact that not all individuals reproduce succesfully (aka natural selection), gene flow, and genetic drift.

25 posted on 09/20/2006 10:28:41 AM PDT by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: Physicist
But it's only teleological in the Pee-wee Herman sense: "I meant to do that!"

Dembski is definitely the Pee-Wee Herman of mathematics. It's fun to watch his web site, wondering what Nigerian email scam he'll fall for next.

26 posted on 09/20/2006 10:29:58 AM PDT by js1138 (The absolute seriousness of someone who is terminally deluded.)
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To: SirLinksalot

The article makes a lot of sense.

Thank you for posting it.


27 posted on 09/20/2006 10:30:07 AM PDT by stultorum (What's your opinion? I'd like to know.)
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To: Alter Kaker

Man cannot outrun a wolf, but used his brain to devise methods to counteract the danger of the wolf or other creatures. A deer of comparable mental ability could do so as well. As little as 50k years ago, a mere eyeblink of geologic time, there were giant deer, sloths, sabertoothed this and that, even sabertoothed kangaroos, but they are all gone. Did their niches change? Or did man upset the evolutionary processes by his mere existence?..............


28 posted on 09/20/2006 10:30:13 AM PDT by Red Badger (Is Castro dead yet?........)
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To: Physicist
Just curious. As far as you know, is there a compelling mathematical argument in support of macro-evolution? Does it involve the theory of computability, complexity theory, etc.?
29 posted on 09/20/2006 10:30:16 AM PDT by ZeitgeistSurfer (The Democrats solution is poison. When the patient is dying, their solution - more poison.)
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To: ryan71
And if early humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes?

If the United States is descended from England (via the colonies) then why does England still exist?

Why did they not evolve even slightly over the millions of years it supposedly took humans to evolve?

Not only have apes evolved, they have evolved at least as much as humans have evolved.

30 posted on 09/20/2006 10:31:25 AM PDT by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
The mathematical improbability of arriving at life (and a world so perfectly suited for life) as we observe it today solely by chance and natural processes even given any ridiculous amount of time suggested so far is incredibly very low--essentially null.

....a central point in the creation/design vs. world arriving by chance debate/discussion

article/thread well suited for mass ping :)
31 posted on 09/20/2006 10:32:04 AM PDT by FreedomProtector
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To: Red Badger
Okay, then why did humans continue to evolve if there was no impetus to do so?.......

Evolutionists would say that there WAS one or more (changing weather, changing food sources, new predators to outflank, etc.) For the record, I am on your side, I believe Darwinian macro-evolution to be ridiculous. I was just pointing out that this particular argument is easily dealt with by them.

It's easy to postulate things happening in prehistoric times, because, as Chesterton points out, it's prehistoric. We really don't know what happened. The scientifically honest approach would be to say that we DON'T know where everything came from (from a scientific point of view) and leave it at that. The whole question does not lend itself to study by the scientific method. There are limitations to what scientific method can reveal or prove.
32 posted on 09/20/2006 10:32:25 AM PDT by sittnick (There is no salvation in politics.)
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To: SirLinksalot
"When you look for links between major groups of animals, they simply aren't there...'Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life', writes David M. Raup, a curator of Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History, 'what geologists of Darwin's time and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the fossil sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence, then abruptly disappear.

Is this supposed to surprise creos? No, but I bet the evos go into attack mode.

33 posted on 09/20/2006 10:32:48 AM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: SirLinksalot

Don't really have a dog in this fight but one thing that bothers me about evolution - evolution operates on years to million years time frames but survival is a second by second proposition. I can't quite reconcile the different time scales.


34 posted on 09/20/2006 10:33:13 AM PDT by DManA
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To: ryan71

"And if early humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes? Why did they not evolve even slightly over the millions of years it supposedly took humans to evolve? "

A news species that evolves does not mean that other species cease to exist. It is not a zero-sum game. In reality, today's apes and humans have evolved to the state they are in from a common ancestor species.

The apes evolved in one direction, and humans evolved in another. We did not evolve from any existing ape species. We are on separate evolutionary tracks, although we come from a common prior species.

By many definitions, human beings are just another ape, anyhow. Chimps, Gorillas, Humans, Orangutans...we're all in the same family. We do different things, and are adapted for a different environment. Otherwise, we're all pretty darned similar, as a trip to any primate house in any zoo will demonstrate rather quickly.

We're not better than the other apes...just different.


35 posted on 09/20/2006 10:35:21 AM PDT by MineralMan
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To: Alter Kaker
Humans continue to evolve and cockroaches continue to evolve.

Says who? The Darwinian approach does not require further evolution. How do you define evolution? Are you saying that a revived 50,000 year old cockroach would not be able to mate and produce fertile offspring with present day cockroach? Do you consider minor variations within a species evolution?
36 posted on 09/20/2006 10:36:51 AM PDT by sittnick (There is no salvation in politics.)
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To: DManA

"evolution operates on years to million years time frames but survival is a second by second proposition. I can't quite reconcile the different time scales.
"

Evolution is not a matter of individual animals, but species. If one monkey dies, it does not affect evolution. The species continues and reproduces.

Evolution does not address the survival of individual critters, just species.


37 posted on 09/20/2006 10:37:35 AM PDT by MineralMan
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To: Red Badger

"If evolution is an ongoing process, and all living things start at the same point, then by now there should be not only sentient humans, but fish, birds and reptiles, etc. Why would just one of the myriad species evolve to a superior position, and not the others......"

I will try to explain the conventional knowlege through a hypothetical.

If you take 1 species (Population A) and put half of that species in a different environment (with a lot of time) the population in a new environment (population B) will either die out or change. If this change is to such a degree that population A can not make viable offspring with population B, you now have two different species.


The two primary conditions are isolation between the populations, and a different environment for each population. Both of which occur on earth.


38 posted on 09/20/2006 10:38:03 AM PDT by Szent_Adam_Kiraly ("google maps is the best! " "true that, Double true!")
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To: MineralMan
We're not better than the other apes...just different.

Be careful, or the animal rights people will want to give them representation!
39 posted on 09/20/2006 10:38:12 AM PDT by sittnick (There is no salvation in politics.)
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To: Red Badger
Man cannot outrun a wolf, but used his brain to devise methods to counteract the danger of the wolf or other creatures.

Intelligence works in some places, speed works in others, and strength in yet others. Species have evolved to find a happy medium between the three that yields optimum survival for them.

Did their niches change? Or did man upset the evolutionary processes by his mere existence?..............

Yes to both. Hunman evolution has upset many niches, although the same is true for the evolution of other predators. Species either evolve to find new niches or they go extinct. I think humans are somewhat unusual because they have had unique evolutionary pressures over the last few hundred thousand years pushing ever-greater intelligence. But there are costs and limites to increased human intelligence as well -- brain size is limited by the width of the female pelvis. If the brain is too large, humans can't be born vaginally. If female pelvises were wider, women wouldn't be able to walk bipedally.

40 posted on 09/20/2006 10:38:31 AM PDT by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: sittnick
Are you saying that a revived 50,000 year old cockroach would not be able to mate and produce fertile offspring with present day cockroach?

No, although it's perfectly possible that it wouldn't be able to, depending on the species. Evolution is simply a change in allele frequencies over time, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts that a population of 50kya cockroaches, while morphologically similar, would have a different allele frequency distribution than an extant population. If you looked at a 100kya population, the difference in distributions would be greater. A 2mya cockroach population might still look morpholigically similar, but the difference in alelle frequency distributions would be very high.

41 posted on 09/20/2006 10:42:24 AM PDT by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: SirLinksalot

Waiting for the ole "abiogenesis is not our problem" dodge always used by Darwinists.


42 posted on 09/20/2006 10:42:55 AM PDT by DungeonMaster
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To: sittnick

Why is that? Gorillas are not human beings, nor are Chimpanzees. Since they are not human beings, they do not get to participate in human affairs.

You'd probably not survive too well dumped into the Gorillas' environment, either, with no tools or clothing. In that regard, Gorillas are better adapted to their environment than humans. Gorillas, on the other hand, would not do well participating in human activities that require our special adaptations, like intelligence.

Arm wrestle a chimp. You will lose. That means that chimps are superior to humans in arm strength. Challence a chimp to a game of chess, however, and the chimp will lose, even if you are novice player. Humans are superior to chimps at board games.

Again, we're not better than other apes...we're just different.


43 posted on 09/20/2006 10:43:25 AM PDT by MineralMan
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To: SirLinksalot; Alamo-Girl
It is conceivable that a programmer unable to look ahead more than 5 or 6 characters at a time might be able to make some very slight improvements to a computer program, but it is inconceivable that he could design anything sophisticated without the ability to plan far ahead and to guide his changes toward that plan.

That's a reference to Aristotle's "final cause" of his Four Causes above.

“The final cause is an end which is not for the sake of anything else, but for the sake of which everything [else] is. So if there is to be a last term of this kind, the process will not be infinite; and if there is no such term there will be no final cause. Those who maintain an infinite series do not realize that they are destroying the very nature of the Good, although no one would try to do anything if he were not likely to reach some limit (peras); nor would there be reason in the world (nous), for the reasonable man always acts for the sake of an end — which is a limit.” [Metaphysics, Book 12, Part 7]

Funny thing is the life sciences seem not to recognize formal and final causes, evidently believing instead that material and efficient causes explain everything you need to know. But as Chandra Wickramasingh has pointed out, that is tantamount to the expectation that a typhoon blowing through a junk yard will produce a Boeing 747.

Great post, SirLinksalot. Thank you so much!

44 posted on 09/20/2006 10:45:30 AM PDT by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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To: Alter Kaker

The evolutionary solution would be to grow larger, taller and more wider in order to accomodate the larger brain mass, but since we do not use anywhere near the maximum capacity of the human brain, such a change is not necessary. The de-evolution of man wil be brought about by the lack of use of the brain mass capacity and is evident in many animalistic behavioral traits of humans in gangs, prisons, Democrat conventions etc.......


45 posted on 09/20/2006 10:45:37 AM PDT by Red Badger (Is Castro dead yet?........)
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To: sittnick

"Are you saying that a revived 50,000 year old cockroach would not be able to mate and produce fertile offspring with present day cockroach?"

You are, perhaps, not aware that there are numerous species of cockroaches right now on this planet. Most cannot intebreed with other species of cockroaches.

So, there is no "present-day cockroach." There are many different species in the cockroach family. Yet, we call them all cockroaches. Evolution at work.


46 posted on 09/20/2006 10:46:20 AM PDT by MineralMan
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer
As far as you know, is there a compelling mathematical argument in support of macro-evolution?

Yes. (1 + µ)n ~ 1 only if µ=0 (micorevolution does not exist) and/or n is small (young Earth). If you accept microevolution and an old Earth, macroevolution is inescapable.

47 posted on 09/20/2006 10:47:47 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Lucky Dog

Let's cut that avenue of the critics' attack early"

Don't hassle them with facts!


48 posted on 09/20/2006 10:52:05 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: Red Badger
The evolutionary solution would be to grow larger, taller and more wider (sic) in order to accomodate the larger brain mass,

Well, no. Because absolute brain size isn't as important as the ratio of brain size to body size. A basketball player isn't necessarily smarter than a tiny Ukranian grandmother. That said, humans are getting larger, but that seems to have more to do with better nutrition, better healthcare and sexual selection and less to do with an increase in intelligence.

since we do not use anywhere near the maximum capacity of the human brain, such a change is not necessary

Speak for yourself!

49 posted on 09/20/2006 10:52:42 AM PDT by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: MineralMan
"In reality, today's apes and humans have evolved to the state they are in from a common ancestor species."

What do you suppose that species was like? If apes and humans evolved from the same species, wouldn't skills needed to survive and environments have been the same? I wonder why only humans have mastered the use of fire for survival? Certainly all the apes could have benefited from the use of fire.
50 posted on 09/20/2006 10:53:04 AM PDT by ryan71
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