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Evolution as Described by the Second Law of Thermodynamics
Physorg.com ^ | August 11, 2008 | Lisa Zyga

Posted on 08/11/2008 11:22:05 AM PDT by Soliton

By viewing evolution as the motion of energy flows toward a stationary state (entropy), evolution can be explained by the second law of thermodynamics, a law which conventionally describes physical systems. In this view, a cheetah serves as an energy transfer mechanism, and beneficial mutations allow the animal to transfer more energy within its environment, helping even out the energy.

(Excerpt) Read more at physorg.com ...


TOPICS: Science
KEYWORDS: boring; cantthink; clueless; crevo; evolution; humor; irrational; junkscience; makebelieve; noonecares; obsession; patrickhenryreturns; thermodynamics; whatajoke; yawn; zzzzzzzzz
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But creationist IDers say that the second law of thermodynamics makes natural evolution impossible!
1 posted on 08/11/2008 11:22:05 AM PDT by Soliton
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To: Soliton
But creationist IDers say that the second law of thermodynamics makes natural evolution impossible!

I think most creationists have abandoned that line of argument.

2 posted on 08/11/2008 11:25:37 AM PDT by jalisco555 ("My 80% friend is not my 20% enemy" - Ronald Reagan)
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To: Soliton

Evolution is based upon the theory that death and mutation has ultimately resulted in the creation of man.

No thanks...

I’ll take Jesus my Lord, God and Savior over death and mutation 10,000 times in a row.


3 posted on 08/11/2008 11:26:36 AM PDT by shineon
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To: jalisco555
I think most creationists have abandoned that line of argument.

Not here on FR. I get it tossed at me constantly

4 posted on 08/11/2008 11:26:50 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Soliton
Not here on FR. I get it tossed at me constantly

Oh, I know. But in general I think it's the case.

5 posted on 08/11/2008 11:28:37 AM PDT by jalisco555 ("My 80% friend is not my 20% enemy" - Ronald Reagan)
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To: shineon
I’ll take Jesus my Lord, God and Savior over death and mutation 10,000 times in a row.

But the Bible tells us that Jesus died and mutated (transfigured). Don't you believe the Bible?

6 posted on 08/11/2008 11:30:24 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: shineon
Evolution is based upon the theory that death and mutation has ultimately resulted in the creation of man. No thanks...

That's like saying, "Gravity is based on the theory that we're all getting sucked into our planet. No thanks."

Facts are stubborn things. They don't just go away because you don't like them or their implications.

7 posted on 08/11/2008 11:30:41 AM PDT by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
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To: Alter Kaker
Facts are stubborn things. They don't just go away because you don't like them or their implications.

Well said.

8 posted on 08/11/2008 11:31:50 AM PDT by jalisco555 ("My 80% friend is not my 20% enemy" - Ronald Reagan)
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To: Soliton

I put creme in my coffee this morning, and it changed colors...must be evolution....

Making your point is one thing; but you are borderline obsessed with this stuff.....seriously.....


9 posted on 08/11/2008 11:31:50 AM PDT by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: Soliton
But creationist IDers say that the second law of thermodynamics makes natural evolution impossible!

If the young earthers ignore the part about 'closed system', ignoring that initial energy transfer comes from the sun.

10 posted on 08/11/2008 11:32:33 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: Soliton

I was under the impression that the second law of thermodynamics also spoke of a movement from order to chaos. From useful/organized energy to useless/random energy. Is that not an aspect of this theory?


11 posted on 08/11/2008 11:37:42 AM PDT by Theo (Global warming "scientists." Pro-evolution "scientists." They're both wrong.)
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To: jalisco555

“A naturalistic origin of the universe violates either the First or Second Laws of thermodynamics — or both. So, is this science? Or faith?”

Roy Spencer on Intelligent Design, July 14th 2008

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/roy-spencer-on-intelligent-design/


12 posted on 08/11/2008 11:38:00 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Theo
I was under the impression that the second law of thermodynamics also spoke of a movement from order to chaos. From useful/organized energy to useless/random energy. Is that not an aspect of this theory?

That is what they are discussing in the article

13 posted on 08/11/2008 11:40:30 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Soliton

Well, I admit I don’t spend a lot of time reading the ID literature. It’s just an impression I’ve gathered, that those who believed the 2nd Law precludes evolution were just embarrassed too often and dropped that particular argument.


14 posted on 08/11/2008 11:41:54 AM PDT by jalisco555 ("My 80% friend is not my 20% enemy" - Ronald Reagan)
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To: Soliton

;-)
15 posted on 08/11/2008 11:42:42 AM PDT by LesbianThespianGymnasticMidget (Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes)
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To: Soliton

I buy that faster cheetahs beget faster cheetahs. But the logical conclusion would also be that wildebeests and antelope type species develop claws and fangs to fend off their attackers.

It has to work both ways - right?


16 posted on 08/11/2008 11:45:10 AM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: jonno
I buy that faster cheetahs beget faster cheetahs. But the logical conclusion would also be that wildebeests and antelope type species develop claws and fangs to fend off their attackers. It has to work both ways - right?

No it doesn't. Maybe they develop faster speed and herd behavior instead. Humans didn't develop fangs to fight the sabre-tooth tiger, we developed better brains.

17 posted on 08/11/2008 11:48:09 AM PDT by jalisco555 ("My 80% friend is not my 20% enemy" - Ronald Reagan)
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To: jalisco555
Well, I admit I don’t spend a lot of time reading the ID literature. It’s just an impression I’ve gathered, that those who believed the 2nd Law precludes evolution were just embarrassed too often and dropped that particular argument

And they should be, but the link I just gave you is to a site run by one of the Discovery Institutes primary voices. The Discovery Institute is behind this whole ID push. They don't publish this nonsense to convert scientists. It's for the true believers to inocculate themselves agaist the truth. It's not a recruiting strategy, but a retention program.

18 posted on 08/11/2008 11:49:15 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Soliton

Dang, that’s Rush’s guy. Who would have thought he was on board with this stuff?


19 posted on 08/11/2008 11:52:33 AM PDT by GunRunner
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To: Soliton

So you thought you’d just stir the pot a bit...


20 posted on 08/11/2008 11:54:04 AM PDT by xmission (Democrats have killed our Soldiers by rewarding the enemy for brutality)
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To: GunRunner

I’m not sure what you are referring to.


21 posted on 08/11/2008 11:55:02 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: xmission
So you thought you’d just stir the pot a bit...

No, I just wanted to shut up the second law deniers.

22 posted on 08/11/2008 11:57:47 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Soliton

OK, I forced myself to read the article at your link. It’s a restatement of every discredited point IDers have been making for years. You’re right, it’s not meant to convince honest inquirers, just to reassure believers.


23 posted on 08/11/2008 11:58:29 AM PDT by jalisco555 ("My 80% friend is not my 20% enemy" - Ronald Reagan)
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To: Soliton

Seems like your homepage used to have something about how bad this type of discussion made FR look.


24 posted on 08/11/2008 12:00:15 PM PDT by xmission (Democrats have killed our Soldiers by rewarding the enemy for brutality)
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To: Soliton

I don’t see those terms in the article.


25 posted on 08/11/2008 12:00:47 PM PDT by Theo (Global warming "scientists." Pro-evolution "scientists." They're both wrong.)
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To: scottdeus12
I put creme in my coffee this morning, and it changed colors...must be evolution....

Or, more logically, you simply put creme in your coffee which lightened the color. If this is your understanding of evolution, then how can anyone take any of your arguments seriously... ever?
26 posted on 08/11/2008 12:01:38 PM PDT by whattajoke
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To: LesbianThespianGymnasticMidget

LOL. That is one of the best takedowns of the morons I’ve ever seen.


27 posted on 08/11/2008 12:03:14 PM PDT by manapua
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To: Soliton

How’s the fundraiser going?


28 posted on 08/11/2008 12:05:06 PM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: Soliton
Limbaugh has him on his show as his official global warming skeptic and quotes from him extensively to rebut things from Algore and the global warming cult.

He seemed reasonable and stuck to science. I didn't take him for an ID advocate.

29 posted on 08/11/2008 12:14:28 PM PDT by GunRunner
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To: Soliton
By viewing evolution as the motion of energy flows toward a stationary state (entropy). . .

LOL Gee, a brand new defintion for evolution. The author of this article begins with a faulty premise. The theory of evolution has nothing to do with 'energy flows'.

Good grief.

30 posted on 08/11/2008 12:15:26 PM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall cause you to vote against the Democrats.)
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To: jalisco555

This line of reasoniing and orthodox evolution theory are not capable of forcasting change. In fact,change is not guaranteed. When it occurs it may be in a less successful direction. The cheetah may develop shorter claws and die out.
What I find most interesting is the absolute necessity, according to evolutionary theory, of extinction. Yet we have a body of law and government edicts mandating the protection of species in danger of extinction. The spurious argument given is that humans are causing the extinctions. Why is that a bad thing according to evolutionary theory. Is it not our natural duty to eradicate every species that endangers us or is not useful to us? Similarly do we not increase populations of creatures that benefit us?
In the final analysis one can not be an environmentalist and accept evolution. The two views are polar opposites.


31 posted on 08/11/2008 12:15:26 PM PDT by Louis Foxwell (here come I, gravitas in tow.)
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To: Soliton

thanks for the laugh!


32 posted on 08/11/2008 12:17:24 PM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals over 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: Amos the Prophet
This line of reasoniing and orthodox evolution theory are not capable of forcasting change. In fact,change is not guaranteed. When it occurs it may be in a less successful direction. The cheetah may develop shorter claws and die out.

This is certainly true. The notion that evolution is necessarily progressive is a myth. Humans have less acute senses of smell than our ancestors, for instance.

As to your other point, what passes for environmentalism today is hardly grounded in science, biological or otherwise.

33 posted on 08/11/2008 12:21:21 PM PDT by jalisco555 ("My 80% friend is not my 20% enemy" - Ronald Reagan)
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To: manapua

Your name-calling does you no service. You should try reading what you and your buds write. It has all the earmarks of dogma. In addition, by simply making fun of those who you disagree with, you do not take on the very serious business at hand here.

C’mon, what are you afraid of?

Your basic argument seems to be that those who disagree with you are somehow inferior. This has nothing to do with the substance of the arguments. You talk amongst yourselves in front of everyone else as though that proves something other than that you are bereft of cogent convincing conclusive arguments.

Then you take on FR and try to make the web site owners embarrassed. These are old school socialist fascist methods. Stand up and fight in the open, like men! If you really believe in evolution, then you should be able to be the fittest that survive!

Somehow I think you have minds that are closed shut. Hello?

If you truly believe that consciousness is an accident than you cannot believe in accidents. Or, your beliefs must also be accidents, and, therefore, no better or worse than mine.


34 posted on 08/11/2008 12:22:55 PM PDT by sleepy_hollow
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To: manapua
New to this debate. Not picking sides, just want to know where some folks come from.

We see fossils of birds or reptiles or other animals and plants from tens to hundreds of millions of years ago, and lo and behold, they are somewhat the same as they are now (they are still birds or reptiles or plants). How is it, then, that all the species of life on earth are to have evolved in a relatively short time span (geologically speaking) from a single entity? Or is there some huge, all of the sudden appearance, of multiple species? Scientists keep telling me I'm closely related to all life forms on earth and that we all share x-number of percent of dna and genes, but it raises more questions than answers for me.

Here's why, using bacteria as a starting point. They reproduce feverishly (many thousands of generations to one human life-time), but they are still bacteria. These lowest forms of life have never shown the ability to go beyond being bacteria. Yet, we have millions of diverse species of all things, that keep turning into more of those things. We don't see lines of apes being anything but apes, well, where did the first ape come from? What about the first bird?

Not looking for a fight, just looking for logical answers to logical questions.

35 posted on 08/11/2008 12:29:20 PM PDT by IYAS9YAS
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To: sleepy_hollow
I particularly like how you are able to ascribe a particular "argument" to me. Tell me, from where did you divine my argument? Was it delivered from Apollo? Or was it purely from your posterior?

My argument, fwiw, is that the study of science provides us with a wonderful method of acquiring knowledge of our universe. It's a method of thinking that (1) is not incompatible with my religion, and (2) has benefited man in numerous ways.

36 posted on 08/11/2008 12:29:50 PM PDT by manapua
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To: IYAS9YAS
“...some huge, all of the sudden appearance...”

...the “Hopeful Monster Theory”, where in one giant leap of a mutation a totally functional mutation develops that looks completely different than the parents. Which, rather coincidentally, explains the lack of abundant transitional fossil evidence.

The reason Western civiization, to this very day, gives birth to their young with the windows closed, out of fear that a mutation will be born and fly out the window.

...that's the way I heard it anyway...

37 posted on 08/11/2008 12:39:12 PM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals over 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: IYAS9YAS

Your questions, good as they are, are impossible to answer in a simple internet post. May I recommend two books that might be helpful? They are “Evolution: The Remarkable History of a Scientific Theory “ by Edward Larson and “The Making of the Fittest” by Sean Carroll. Good places to start.


38 posted on 08/11/2008 12:40:10 PM PDT by jalisco555 ("My 80% friend is not my 20% enemy" - Ronald Reagan)
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To: whattajoke

“Or, more logically, you simply put creme in your coffee which lightened the color. If this is your understanding of evolution, then how can anyone take any of your arguments seriously... ever?”

It’s called sarcasm..ever heard of it?


39 posted on 08/11/2008 12:48:28 PM PDT by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: Soliton

If the 2nd law were provable, then evolution would be disprovable.


40 posted on 08/11/2008 12:49:40 PM PDT by DungeonMaster (My son just joined the Navy!!!!!!!!!)
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To: jalisco555
Thank you.

I believe in God, I beleive in creation, but I do not disbelieve in evolution. While I don't completely buy into the ID theory, I do believe that a God who is powerful enough to create, would also give us the gift of being able to adapt and overcome.

I am one who looks at the beauty of nature around me and comes to the conclusion that things are a bit too ordered to have been random.

There is a lot of structure to things, there is also a lot of chaos. What I like to see is the structured order of things reacting to chaos. My favorite example is the way nature came back from the devastation of Mt. Saint Helens.

41 posted on 08/11/2008 12:53:23 PM PDT by IYAS9YAS
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To: DungeonMaster
If the 2nd law were provable, then evolution would be disprovable.

You couldn't understand the article could you?

42 posted on 08/11/2008 12:56:19 PM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Soliton

PX-99 Nuclear-Fired Popcorn Popper activating, sir...


43 posted on 08/11/2008 1:06:34 PM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: B-Chan
Have some of mine while your energy source reaches critical mass:


44 posted on 08/11/2008 1:10:04 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: jonno
I buy that faster cheetahs beget faster cheetahs. But the logical conclusion would also be that wildebeests and antelope type species develop claws and fangs to fend off their attackers.

Claws and fangs would be very difficult adaptations for these animals for a variety of reasons (e.g., carnivore teeth aren't great for an herbivore). But if you look at the world of herbivores, you'll note that many of them have adaptations that make them very difficult prey for carnivores. Elephants are big, rhinos are well-armored, Cape buffalo sport dangerous horns, giraffes are lethal kickers etc.

45 posted on 08/11/2008 1:14:19 PM PDT by Citizen Blade ("Please... I go through everyone's trash." The Question)
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To: MHGinTN

Mmm! Kettle korn!


46 posted on 08/11/2008 1:15:17 PM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: LesbianThespianGymnasticMidget

The “smart guys” that made that graphic misspelled “plate tectonics”. DUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRR


47 posted on 08/11/2008 1:16:12 PM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: Citizen Blade
if you look at the world of herbivores, you'll note that many of them have adaptations that make them very difficult prey for carnivores. Elephants are big, rhinos are well-armored, Cape buffalo sport dangerous horns, giraffes are lethal kickers...

...yaks just plain taste bad...

48 posted on 08/11/2008 1:18:02 PM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: Soliton

Yeah, like people read the article.


49 posted on 08/11/2008 1:39:19 PM PDT by DungeonMaster (My son just joined the Navy!!!!!!!!!)
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To: Soliton
I find the evolution of a highly complex organism like a cheetah to be a very poor example of entropy. Entropy would be enhanced more if cheetahs and their prey all were converted into trillions of bacteria.

Anyway the 2nd Law of thermodynamics applies to closed systems and is really irrelevant to life on earth, whose development is almost entirely dependent on enormous and relatively stable imports of energy from the sun. If one redrew the system boundaries to include the sun, then maybe one could talk about entropy vs. life. The linked article is basically pop pseudoscience.

50 posted on 08/11/2008 2:19:43 PM PDT by hellbender
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