(John) Daly finds way back (don't call it a comeback...)

I like them both for different reasons.

Repeating foolishness does not make it true.

You keep saying that he understands alcoholism. First, it is clear that you do not. Second, even if the "drunken bum" does "understand " alcoholism which you say it means that he understands that he has a choice- but he chooses to do nothing.

The very problem of alcoholism is that the individual has lost that power of choice. If he had the power of choice it would be irrational for him to engage in the conduct and he would simply exercise good judgment based on cognition and stop the behavior. How come all these millions of people that you cite have not done it that way?

If you mean that Mr. Daley's choice option is to seek rehabilitative therapy, according to the article he has done that several times. He made the choice you want. It did not work. You might be interested to know that there is virtually no statistical difference in long-time sobriety rates between alcoholics who voluntarily submit themselves to inpatient treatment as opposed to those who do so involuntarily. It seems that the power of choice is not so clear-cut.

If you take a look at Dr. Jelinek's seminal treatise on alcoholism, for example, you will see a distinction made between compulsion and obsession. Most people understand that the alcoholic loses his power of choice after he consumes the first drink. They understand and accept the compulsive nature of the disease after the fire is lit. But most people do not understand is that the obsessive character of the disease means that he has lost the power to refuse the first drink. That is the mystery my friend. Self knowledge is no defense against the obsession anymore than it is a defense against diarrhea.

This phenomenon is not limited to alcoholism. Rush Limbaugh is currently losing several stone of weight any frankly says that he will put it right back on as he has dozens of times in the past. Do you say that should have his career taken away from him as you say of John Daly that he should have his career forfeited? Of course not. But Rush Limbaugh does not seem to have the power of choice over his demon. Yet, by all the evidence, he has successfully come off OxyContin and the other drugs. Why is he successful with one and not the other? There is so much we do not know and it is so easy to pass judgment.

I am not part of Mr. Daley's problem. I do not pity him and I do not enable him. His problem is ultimately between himself and his God. I am not to blame for alcoholism. He is too big and strong for me to force alcohol down his throat. But neither do I judge him so self righteously. There are too many layers of the onion that must be peeled. I am, I confess, fascinated by his struggle for the reason I stated in my very first post, it is a biblical struggle and it is transcendental.

If there is anyone else reading this exchange, it is interesting to apply these principles to why people are liberal as opposed to conservative. My theory, for what it is worth, parallels what we know about alcoholism: the liberal is compelled to do what he does and believe as he does because, he would be God. Just as the alcoholic plays God and tries to arrange the universe to his satisfaction by changing his perception of it through alcohol, the liberal is compelled to rearrange the world to his satisfaction because he is a stranger to the first commandment.

That is my theory and I am sticking with it.

“The very problem of alcoholism is that the individual has lost that power of choice.”

You are an idiot. Unless the man is being held down and having alcohol poured down his throat, he can make the same choice several million of us make each day, one day at a time. Don’t pick up the drink. It’s the only cure. He makes the choice to pick up the drink. The man takes the drink, the drink takes the man. He knows better now and he continues to makes the choice. He is a coward and a bum.

Let me guess - you are in the process of killing yourself or some other poor bastrd by enabling them.

His problem in compulsive disorders and alcoholism.

That, and the IQ of a doorknob, as Johnny Carson might have said....

He’s an interesting character.

Saw him at the Skins Game here in La Quinta several years ago......very sullen kinda guy. Man, could he pound that ball, though. (He got aced that year....zero $$)

Payne Stewart. Still miss him. He was a good man. Still remember the day . . . breaks my heart to think about it. He was such a joyous man and a believer. Betcha he is making God laugh up there with his fun spirit.

“He was such a joyous man and a believer. Betcha he is making God laugh up there with his fun spirit.”

I’ll bet He met him wearing knickers...

Yes. I have seen him play quite a lot both recently and along the way and man he can drive that ball. I was surprised too to see how brilliant he is on the putting green. Deadly combination and two very different gifts. Too bad he just throws it all down the shitter.

Still draws a big crowd though and when we do see him play in a US tournament these days it is usually ONLY because of this reason. Let no one delude themselves otherwise. Sponsors like crowds. Eventually though even that wouldn't get him in the door because he burned those bridges as well. If it comes in his path. He burns it.

LOL. Yeah. I got the visual on that exchange. Now stop it you’re making me tear up. :-)

“He never strangled any dogs, took steroid’s (from what we can tell), ran anyone over, beaten anyone up, etc.”

JOHN DALY, the 1991 P.G.A. champion, has been arrested and charged with third-degree assault in Castle Rock, Colo., in an incident that occurred in his home early Sunday morning.

During the incident, police charge, Daly threw his wife against a wall.

Daly, 26 years old, was arrested Wednesday, Sgt. KIM CASTELLANO of the Douglas County Sheriff’s Department said yesterday. In accordance with the county’s domestic violence policy, Daly was taken before a judge and posted $1,000 bond, Castellano said.

John’s alcohol problems reached a crescendo in December of 1992. During a Christmas party at their new five-bedroom home in Castle Pines, he and Bettye got into a nasty fight. According to reports, after becoming sloppy drunk, John pushed over a big-screen TV, punched a few holes into the wall, then shoved his wife into a wall while pulling her hair.

His biggest paycheck from May to August was $13,150 in the NEC World Series of Golf. In that event he wrestled in the parking lot with a 62-year-old fan who accused him of having deliberately driven his tee shot into the group playing ahead of him during that day’s round.

After drinking for 14 hours straight, John lost control of himself. Six security guards were summoned to his hotel and labored to subdue him.

Yeah. Never hurt anyone but himself. Stop infantilizing this poor bstrd and propping him up. Let him hit bottom so he might live. Geez...the only success he has ever had was when he was temporarily sober...

“LOL. Yeah. I got the visual on that exchange. Now stop it you’re making me tear up. :-) “

A worthy reason...we need more like him today more than ever.

Let me correct myself. John is not brilliant around the greens as much as he has the touch. He is a darn good putter sometimes in spite of the emotional and physical hangovers he can bring to the field. His putting gift really stands out juxtaposed with the huge distance he gets off the tee. I at first thought he was just a big hitter and then I saw the rest of his game and was shocked. God has given him so much. Too bad he can’t auction off his talent. At this point he just plays to pay the bills and to keep his appearance fees up.

A worthy reason...we need more like him today more than ever.

Yes. You can say that again.

A worthy reason...we need more like him today more than ever.

:-D. More than ever.

I think we have reached the point of diminishing returns. I posted an observation that John Daly was undergoing a spirtual struggle. That he was not a "hateful man" and we were pulling for hm in his spiritual struggle. You volunteered a reply callin a "drunken bum." In subsequent posts you of heard that the quote understands unquote alcoholism, that he is possessed of the power of choice, and has declined to exercise that choice.

I did not see much point in saying yes when you say no. I hope it is not necessary for me to formally deny that I am "killing" myself or anyone else. But I did take a minute to Google, "alcoholism power of choice" and this is the first thing that popped up. Apparently it was written by some guy named Bill, whoever he is, who wrote a book called As Bill Sees It. I thought I would pass it along to you in case you can make something of it:

As Bill Sees It

Page 88

Will Power And Choice "We A.A.'s know the futility of trying to break the drinking obsession by will power alone. However, we do know that it takes great willingness to adopt A.A.'s Twelve Steps as a way of life that can restore us to sanity.

"No matter how grievous the alcohol obsession, we happily find that other vital choices can still be made. For example, we can choose to admit that we are personally powerless over alcohol; that dependence upon a 'Higher Power' is a necessity, even if this be simply dependence upon an A.A. group. Then we can choose to try for a life of honesty and humility, of selfless service to our fellows and to 'God as we understand Him.'

"As we continue to make these choices and so move toward these high aspirations, our sanity returns and the compulsion to drink vanishes,"

Letter, 1966

http://www.cyberrecovery.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21976