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What of Freemasonry?
The "Net" | May 23, 2009 | logic 'n reason

Posted on 05/24/2009 10:20:53 AM PDT by Logic n' Reason

I have become very curious about the Freemasons and freemasonry in general.
How does it "fit in" with the group of Christian religions...how about islam? What are the views and opinions of those at this site?


TOPICS: Education; Miscellaneous; Science; Society
KEYWORDS: 2b1ask1; adamweishaupt; blazingstar; bringsoutthekooks; freemason; freemasonry; illuminati; lucifer; masonry; snakehandlers; society
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1 posted on 05/24/2009 10:20:53 AM PDT by Logic n' Reason
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To: Logic n' Reason

Tin foil.


2 posted on 05/24/2009 10:22:28 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Conservatism is about freedom, and fighting people who want to take it away." Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Matchett-PI

Really? And upon what do you base your “intelligent” comment?


3 posted on 05/24/2009 10:26:56 AM PDT by Logic n' Reason (GM = Gummint Motors.)
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To: Logic n' Reason
I have become very curious about the Freemasons and freemasonry in general

I would love some free masonry.

They could wall up the front of the property, as the fence is getting old.

4 posted on 05/24/2009 10:27:17 AM PDT by humblegunner
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To: Logic n' Reason

5 posted on 05/24/2009 10:28:05 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: Logic n' Reason

My opinion? If you’re a Mason, you’re not a Christian.


6 posted on 05/24/2009 10:29:57 AM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: Logic n' Reason; uglybiker

Ping Ugly Biker

Logic,
You can find out a lot of great information here that is a lot more accurate than the kook and conspiracy sites:
http://www.masonicinfo.com/primer.htm


7 posted on 05/24/2009 10:30:03 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: Logic n' Reason
OK.. I'll bite.

Jesus says, "He is the only way to the Father and to eternal life." Freemasonry believes that all roads lead to heaven... even Islam. It's called universalism. That is the difference. Christianity is just another religion in their pantheon. Freemasonry is another man made ritual that incorporates many man made rituals leading many astray from true faith. It's another path on the broad road to destruction. There.

8 posted on 05/24/2009 10:30:10 AM PDT by BigFinn (isa 32:8 But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand.)
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To: Logic n' Reason

Society with secrets. You hear some messed up things about them but generally I figure if you look at the founding father’s involvement in this group it has gotta be pretty good. If you have ever read Asimov’s Foundation series I think that is what the Freemasons do. Protect knowledge and advance things for the good of society and try to mitigate the dark ages of humanity. Also George Washington in an apron LOL!

BTW, if you’re a good standing free man in society who believes in a higher power of some kind you should just hit up to local Masonic Temple they probably have a video or a pamphlet or something.


9 posted on 05/24/2009 10:32:11 AM PDT by Eyes Unclouded (Step 1: Expel half the party and write off huge chunks of the country. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit.)
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To: swmobuffalo

Horseshit. And yes that answer is about as intekkigent as your comment.


10 posted on 05/24/2009 10:32:25 AM PDT by Americanexpat
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To: swmobuffalo

My father was a Mason at a very high level, my mother an Eastern Star, I was a Demolay (briefly), most of my uncles were Masons, my father-in-law was a Mason, also at a very high level and I would totally agree with you that Masonry is not compatible with Christianity. I thank God that my parents disengaged from Masonry later in life.


11 posted on 05/24/2009 10:33:56 AM PDT by gscc
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To: Americanexpat

the mispelling was intentional too.


12 posted on 05/24/2009 10:34:16 AM PDT by Americanexpat
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To: Logic n' Reason
As a Catholic, I have been recruited several times to join the Masons, and I have politely decline.

However, I think that the Catholic “ban” on Masonry is NOT monolithic, and it is, in the end, up to local Bishops. However, I think the Church does discourage participation in the higher degrees.

Frankly, though the Catholic Church has MUCH to be proud of, not the least of which is preservation of the Faith and the protection of many of the founding Christian documents over the centuries -—

I suspect that most of the Church resistance to Masonry is the fact that Masonry, itself, claims roots in the Knights Templars.

The Knights Templars might well have “lost their way” when they sacked Constantinople, and attacked the Eastern Church.

However, there is NO doubt that without the Knights Templars, Islam would have conquered much more of Europe, much earlier than they did.

The King of France, at the time, owed large sums of money to the Knights Templars.

Instead of paying up, the King of France made false charges against the Knights: heresy, idolatry, etc.

This was a shameful time in CHRISTIAN history, as nobody seemed willing to stand up for or protect the Knights from these false charges.

Sadly, even the Pope stood silent, and allowed this persecution.

Demolay was the leader of the Knights, at the time. The Mason's youth group is named after him. He was burned at the stake as a heretic.

To me, these are the real reasons the Catholic Church has historically resisted the Masons, whose basic tenant is that religion is a good thing, but that religious wars have caused more pain than any other human problem on Earth.

I do think that the Mason's insistence on making all religions “equal” is weird.

Some Masonic groups, today, do not even allow the name of “Jesus” to be used, sometimes not even in an EASTER service!

This has more to do with the radical Unitarians, Agnostics and other lefties taking control of Masonry, than anything else.

However, the goal of finding the “common denominators” in faith is, I think, a worthy goal.

I simply do not believe that anyone must suppress his or her own faith, in order to agree on common ideas with other faiths.

Well, you asked, hope I was not too windy!

13 posted on 05/24/2009 10:34:19 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Logic n' Reason

I think it can be boiled down into two concepts:

Universalism

Secular Humanism

If you are a Christian who believes that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, and that there is no way to the Father except through Him, then membership in freemasonry is a direct contradiction to that belief.


14 posted on 05/24/2009 10:35:29 AM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Logic n' Reason
How does it "fit in" with the group of Christian religions

Free Masonry requires that a member profess a belief in a creator.

Other than that there is no requirement to be of any religion.

There is one order of Mosonry that requires one to be a professed Christian.

The order of Knights Templar.

All Knights Templar are members of the world's oldest fraternal organization known as "The Ancient Free And Accepted Masons" or more commonly known as "masons". However, not all masons are Templars. Templary is but a part of the Masonic structure known as the "York Rite Of Freemasonry".

15 posted on 05/24/2009 10:35:42 AM PDT by Pontiac (Your message here.)
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To: swmobuffalo

16 posted on 05/24/2009 10:37:10 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: swmobuffalo
The author Eidsmoe wrote a great book, “Christianity and the Constitution” -—

http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Constitution-Faith-Founding-Fathers/dp/0801052319

The author of that great book disagrees strongly with the idea that Christians can not be Masons.

17 posted on 05/24/2009 10:37:11 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: BigFinn

You sound like a catholic. Answer me this, mr catholic anti-mason...if masons and shriners are so anti-jesus, then why did the catholics go out and invent their own catholic version of the masons/shriners?

AKA the knights of columbus?

btw, I’m not a mason.


18 posted on 05/24/2009 10:38:25 AM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: miele man

bump FLR


19 posted on 05/24/2009 10:39:48 AM PDT by miele man
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To: Logic n' Reason

There is a link of some kind between shriners and turks(or the ottoman empire). I don’t know what exactly the link is, but shriners wear a turkish fez.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fez_(hat)


20 posted on 05/24/2009 10:40:02 AM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Kansas58

Don’t particularly care what some author says. I’ve done enough study on my own to formulate the opinion I expressed. But thanks anyway.


21 posted on 05/24/2009 10:40:11 AM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: Logic n' Reason

You’ve got to believe in a deity to be a Mason. It’s not limited to Christianity; some Masonic beliefs and rituals would not be considered particularly Christian, especially by devout fundamentalists.

Beyond that, I’ve understood that Mormonism incorporates many aspects of Freemasonry into their religious ceremonies and rites. Mormons themselves appear to have gone back and forth, as to whether they’re actually Christian themselves, or not.

You’ve got to show interest and make inquiries, in order to become better informed by the Masons themselves. They do not approach you, you approach them.


22 posted on 05/24/2009 10:40:41 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Americanexpat

See post 11. And your intelligence is showing as well.


23 posted on 05/24/2009 10:40:44 AM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: mamelukesabre
As a proud member of the Knights of Columbus, I will tell you why the Knights of Columbus was founded in New Haven, CT.:

Though the movie is not historically perfect, I suggest you watch “Gangs of New York” for a taste of what life was like, for Catholics in pre-civil war America.

When Father McGivney founded the Knights of Columbus, many insurance companies had clauses that would not allow their insurance products to be sold to someone who was not born on American Soil, or even, to those whose PARENTS were not born on American Soil.

Some insurance companies went so far as to specifically DECLINE any applications from Catholics, and even put that prohibition in writing.

The Knights of Columbus was formed to fill a void, and eventually the Knights formed their own Fraternal, Mutual Insurance Company.

To this day, most of the revenue raised by the Knights of Columbus comes from their Insurance operation.

They have one of the most competitive “dividend scales” in the industry.

As “investments” go, a KofC whole life policy will probably out perform a municipal bond, even after taxes, if purchased before age 50 and held for 20 years or more. Even if cashed out BEFORE death!

Anyway, there is your answer:

Necessity if the Mother of Invention!

Bigotry denied insurance to Catholics.

Catholics created their OWN insurance company!

24 posted on 05/24/2009 10:50:29 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: swmobuffalo
Fair enough.
I only ask that you be open to the idea that the basic views of the Shriners and Masons can be corrupted by local leaders, just as we see many Christian Church leaders who go astray.
25 posted on 05/24/2009 10:52:09 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Logic n' Reason

I’ll tell you this: I posted an article once pointing out the very public record that the Warren and Burger court liberals were free masons. I got hundreds of posts, not one disagreeing with anyone I had put on the list. I made no disparaging comments other than noting the sharply liberal orientation of the Supreme Court.

I had every kind of ad-hominem attack level against me you can imagine. So good luck getting a candid answer.

They are a secret society, probably founded 300 years ago, but with their own mythology which claims they built the Egyptian pyramids and/or the Temple of Solomon. They support charitable works, and oppose disputes among religious denominations. This latter leads to accusations that they oppose any denomination which asserts particular doctrines; there is a long history of mutual antagonism between free masons and Catholics, including accusations of conspiracy.

Among their members were many founding Fathers, but their numbers and influenced declined greatly in the 1800s. But by the early 20th century, they became much more popular than ever. Like all fraternal organizations, they declined in the 1960s and 1970s. Their influence today is most felt through the Hellenic fraternities and sororities, many of which have nothing to do with masonry, but many others of which are patterned on masonic rituals and values, as is Mormonism.

OK, let the flaming commence.


26 posted on 05/24/2009 10:53:35 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Kansas58

The Shriner’s Hospitals do great work, especially with children. I have a lot of friends who are Masons and Shriners. All of them are fine, upstanding men.
I have been approached on several different occasions to become a member but I was too involved in other things to give any more of my time.
BTW, all of the Masons I know are Church going Christians. I even had a great Uncle who was a Southern Baptist Pastor who was also a Mason. (This was in the early 1900’s though.)


27 posted on 05/24/2009 10:58:30 AM PDT by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis "Ya gotta saddle up your boys; Ya gotta draw a hard line")
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To: dangus
Good points!

I ask this:

Many of the University “Greek” organizations are just as secret, and have very similar rituals, as the Masons.

(You can go to the Library of Congress and get most of any initiation ritual, for any organization. Perhaps a few of the words will be blacked out, but you can get the basic idea.)

Why did the Catholic Church not resist the “Greek” college societies?

Simple: It was the HISTORY that embarrassed the Church, more than any particular problem with Masonic practices in general.

28 posted on 05/24/2009 10:58:41 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58

“As a Catholic, I have been recruited several times to join the Masons, and I have politely decline.”

Interesting comment.....I thought that Masons were not allowed to recruit....you have to request membership on your own free will. This is a question, I am curious on the contradiction.

******************************************************
I have another question. If religion and politics are not to be discussed in the “lodge”, how does this obviously political group conduct business? Is the “lodge” a seperate room in their buildings or only during ceremonies? Do they only talk about it in private meetings?


29 posted on 05/24/2009 10:59:03 AM PDT by proudtobeanamerican1 (Prayers Up! It's our last defense!)
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To: Kansas58

There was lots of bigotry against catholics in america. from the days after the civil war until probably JFK was elected, catholics and black were both considered dangerous to america. I don’t have any proof to back this up, but my great grandfather claimed that the KKK was at one time as anti-catholic as it was anti-black. I’ve also been told that in america, masons were at one time anti-catholic.

Don’t you think it’s a little bit suspicious that the knights templar were into banking and insurance and that the knights of columbus were as well? And that the origins of the freemasons is connected to the knights templar? Also, don’t forget that the catholics murdered the knights templar. Stands to reason that the masons would not be overly friendly to the catholic church.

Your post sounds an awful lot like a lame excuse to me. The fact still remains that the knights of columbus is nothing more than a CATHOLIC ONLY version of the masons/shriners/knights templar.


30 posted on 05/24/2009 10:59:17 AM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Logic n' Reason; All
In the history of the world, mankind has always divided itself between the good guys and the bad guys.

Freemasons, have always stood for the good guys - the human condition of knowing right vs wrong.

Many may say there are not Christian masons - they are wrong. There are Freemasons that support only the christian church and Jesus Christ.

True at the lower levels of Master masons it is a more universal view allowing anyone the believes in a supreme being to work, live and eat together.

I have seen Jews and Muslims share the same food, drink and fellowship.

Freemasonry is like a university, there are many colleges in them and each man is unique to his choice where he wants to go.

It is best to understand that freedom, the human condition, right vs wrong, helpful vs not - support vs conquer - the good things in life are what Freemasons believe in.

31 posted on 05/24/2009 10:59:41 AM PDT by edcoil (IF CA rolls pollution standards back to 1990 levels, lets roll CA spending back as well.)
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To: BnBlFlag

Dad is a retired Fireman and a devout Catholic.
He was never a Mason, but the Shrine Burn Center and their Children’s hospital work is very close to his heart, to this day.
He got mad at anyone for bashing the Masons.


32 posted on 05/24/2009 11:00:17 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: swmobuffalo
You would be wrong. There are levels of Freemasonry that are defenders of the faith - believing in Jesus Christ.
33 posted on 05/24/2009 11:01:08 AM PDT by edcoil (IF CA rolls pollution standards back to 1990 levels, lets roll CA spending back as well.)
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To: proudtobeanamerican1

I worked with many, was a partner, at one time, with different Masons.

They have recruitment brochures which they would put on my desk.

“To be one, ask one” was said to me, many times.

There are ways to “recruit” which are not considered outright “recruiting” by the Masons.


34 posted on 05/24/2009 11:02:10 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: proudtobeanamerican1

A Masonic symbol, or ring, or phrase, can make all the difference in some business or legal circles, at least this was true at one time.

All other things being equal, where there is a “tie” in a decision, Masons seem to believe that the “tie goes to the Shriner” or Mason.


35 posted on 05/24/2009 11:04:09 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: swmobuffalo

“My opinion? If you’re a Mason, you’re not a Christian.”

Obviously you have no experience with Masons. Or, you are terribly misinformed.

I am a Freemason and I can tell you there are many good Christians in the fraternity. Many good WWII vets as well.

Many ceremonies are performed with the right hand on the Holy Bible.

It is not, however, exclusive to Christians.

Turn off Alex Jones and go see for yourself.

There are plenty of books on the fraternity.

You might be surprised at how much of America’s “foundation” was supported by Freemasons.

If you only take a glance from the outside, and you are prone to paranoia, then you might see the ceremony and symbolism as something it is not.


36 posted on 05/24/2009 11:05:36 AM PDT by Boucheau
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To: mamelukesabre

The KKK Act was written to protect, “Catholics, Negros and Republicans in the Reconstruction South” -— read it sometime!

I am a bit of an expert on the topic, since I belong to 2 out of 3 of those groups, yet Judge Kelly and George Tiller tried (and failed) to use that Act against me!


37 posted on 05/24/2009 11:06:20 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: mamelukesabre

The Knights of Columbus are not masonic. The only thing they share with the masons are common to most fraternal orders. The masons did not invent fraternal orders. If anything, the K of C was created to oppose anti-Catholic bigotry; specifically, it was started in Connecticut as a life insurer, believe it or not!

Your question is a bit like asking, “If the British military is so terrible, why did the Colonists form their own military?”


38 posted on 05/24/2009 11:07:50 AM PDT by dangus
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To: mamelukesabre
Want to make a liberal REALLY mad?

Give them some historical evidence that “Women's Suffrage” or Women's right to vote, was widely promoted by the KKK, which believed that White Women would vote in higher percentages than Black women!

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/5625001.php

39 posted on 05/24/2009 11:08:51 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58

It’s not as frowned upon to “mention” Freemasonry to men you believe might fit in the fraternity.

There is nothing wrong with it as long as it is not a “hard sell” type thing—which I would find appalling and completely unnecessary.

It is more about letting them know such a fraternity exists.


40 posted on 05/24/2009 11:10:50 AM PDT by Boucheau
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To: mamelukesabre

Protestants killed LOTS of Catholics.

Catholics killed LOTS of Protestants.

Many Churches were burned, on both sides, during the “Reformation” -— and much of that strife was NOT justified by anything but a lust for power by the leaders involved.

Christians are human, and as such we are all sinners, and members of the various Christian faiths will make mistakes, and will be lead the wrong way at times.


41 posted on 05/24/2009 11:12:52 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58

>> Simple: It was the HISTORY that embarrassed the Church, more than any particular problem with Masonic practices in general. <<

Oh, brother. Here comes the anti-Catholic nonsense.


42 posted on 05/24/2009 11:16:23 AM PDT by dangus
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To: mamelukesabre

You asked me why the Knights of Columbus was formed.

I gave you, IMHO, a very good answer.

Now, you seem to feel that the Knights of Columbus has no valid right to exist, as it was founded for “financial” reasons? Sorry but your arguments and biases are hard to understand.

SO WHAT!

Yes, Catholics wanted a Fraternal organization, and at the same time Catholics need insurance protection that they were denied, due to bigotry.

So, what in the world is wrong with Catholics taking care of Catholics?

Frankly, you can not qualify for “fraternal” insurance rules and tax rates and regulatory issues without a religious or charitable or community purpose.


43 posted on 05/24/2009 11:16:56 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: swmobuffalo
My opinion? If you’re a Mason, you’re not a Christian.

My own father is a 32nd degree mason.
I also know that he is a christian who understands who Jesus is, and has a personal relationship with Him.

Does this make him "not a Christian"? Hardly.

Does it disable his witness AS a christian? definitely.

I think deep in his heart he does see the contradictions, but simply refuses to recognize or explore the potential damage that it does, primarily because he has been involved with it for so long and has a difficult time denouncing all the good that he sees that it has accomplished in society. He is currently not actively involved, but if asked about it he will have nothing but good things to say about freemasonry. This does not make him right about the issue... but it doesn't make him non-christian either.
44 posted on 05/24/2009 11:17:22 AM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Logic n' Reason
"Really? And upon what do you base your “intelligent” comment?"

Logic & Reason

45 posted on 05/24/2009 11:20:31 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Conservatism is about freedom, and fighting people who want to take it away." Rush Limbaugh)
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To: proudtobeanamerican1

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/33rd_Initiation.htm

Not saying it’s true......interesting though.


46 posted on 05/24/2009 11:22:36 AM PDT by proudtobeanamerican1 (Prayers Up! It's our last defense!)
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To: dangus

That was a pointless post.

I never claimed knights of columbus was masonic. And your last line is just stupid.


47 posted on 05/24/2009 11:27:08 AM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Logic n' Reason

I have become very curious about Kraft Macaroni and Cheese and pasta meals made with cheese in general. How does it “fit in” with the group of Christian religions...how about islam? What are the views and opinions of those at this site?


48 posted on 05/24/2009 11:29:07 AM PDT by egannacht
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To: Kansas58

I don’t care for either the masons or the KofC. What ticks me off is when a typical catholic goes on a rant about masons, but thinks it’s just fine for the KofC to exist.

Gimme a break.


49 posted on 05/24/2009 11:29:38 AM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: dangus

Don’t be a knee jerk reactionary!

I AM Catholic.

However, you can not do a good job DEFENDING the Faith, without, First, UNDERSTANDING the Faith, and History!

The historic resistance of the Catholic Church, towards Masonry, is understandable on many levels.

However, the Church today does NOT have an out right ban on Masonry, simply warnings to keep true to the Catholic Faith and to not water down Catholicism in an attempt at “Fraternity”.

Our own Popes have made apologies about the behavior of the Catholic Church, towards the Eastern Orthodox Church, during the Schism. In fact, I would say that the Catholic Church is READY for full UNION with the Orthodox, it is the Orthodox which resist, for political reasons and a bit of pride in a few of their leaders.

You can be a devout, even Saintly Catholic, and admit that some of our Popes might not have made it into Heaven.

I have defended the Catholic Church during the Third Reich, several times on these threads.

I dare say that I defend Catholic Popes far more often than all but one or two other posters, on these threads.

However, we are NOT required by our Faith to believe that Rome has never made any mistakes.

We have had Catholic Councils which have totally repudiated and reversed previous Catholic Councils, we have had Popes who have reversed previous Popes, on matters of Faith.

We have had Popes that sired countless bastard children.

We have had more than one Pope at the same time, once I think we even had 3 Popes at the same time.

We make mistakes, sometimes.

It is not anti-Catholic to admit as much.

In fact, to “confess our sins” is the HALLMARK OF CATHOLIC TEACHING, is it not?


50 posted on 05/24/2009 11:30:33 AM PDT by Kansas58
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