Posted on 01/02/2010 5:26:21 AM PST by freedomyes
I have much agreement with your perspective . . . but not 100% in all cases, all contexts, all the time.
There IS, I have discovered, a time to appear to take the impossible, fool-hardy road of turning the other cheek to seemingly incredible harm in response.
I don’t think a rule can be made about it.
I think it has to be something Holy Spirit leads and directs.
And, not everyone is UP TO that challenge.
However, I HAVE OBSERVED in my own life and the lives of others, that WHEN Holy Spirit has so led and the individual(s) have followed through—THEY GAINED incaluably and the evil doers lost far more than if they had been confronted by the arm of flesh. Evil ended up devastated by God Almighty far more than the individuals could have ever exacted on their own.
There’s some mystery here but I know that’s also true.
Thanks for your mature wisdom and kind words.
I don’t know if you discern the paradox I have to live with in my mirror, or not.
I hate the acrimony as well.
I love, relish in, love to wallow in—intense, vigorous back and forth dialogue—providing folks walk away with a closer relationship than before. It has long been evident on here that many are incapable of that unless THEIR construction on reality is affirmed or flattered.
As you know, satire, mocking etc. is plentiful in Scripture. It is particularly addressed, in Scripture, toward particular attitudes, stances. My perception is that it is usually addressed toward pride, self-righteousness, pharisee-ism, INSTITUTIONALIZED RELIGION, rank hypocrisy, idolatry etc.
And, I’ve never found those attitudes, spirits amenable to honey nor any other warm and fuzzy approach. I don’t actually find them amenable to anything but the blood and deliverance of Jesus. And He tends to not violate folks’ free will on such matters, most of the time—unless, maybe, He knows their heart underneath really seeks deliverance.
Certainly writing in any style less than lovingly warm and fuzzy is full of hazard. Yet, how can one dare to AVOID to forcefully stand up for TRUTH AND RIGHTEOUSNESS; TRUTH IN LOVE—even that fierce sort of tough love—WHEN Holy Spirit within appears to press firmly within for it?
I think a lot of churches have become milk toasty coffee clatches only, merely . . . because of a LACK of forceful declaration of the whole Gospel—including the fierce fiery spears of truth to the heart of many critical matters of truth and righteousness, right attitudes, right relationships.
I have observed that folks who are serious about a relationship with God—relish even the hard truth REGARDLESS OF THE SOURCE AND REGARDLESS OF THE MANNER DELIVERED.
Those who seek to continue to wallow in self-pity, arrogance, hypocrisy, idolatry, rationalizations, RELIGION vs RELATIONSHIP . . . will fuss, wail, whine, throw dust in the air over every excuse imaginable—usually blaming the messenger and NEVER DEALING WITH THE TRUTH. That response does NOT impress me. I can’t imagine it impresses God.
Dialogue about this set of issues is dear to my heart. Thanks for your wisdom. Happy to prayerfully consider whatever you have to offer on these topics.
Killing them keeps you that way.
ED Well put. I do not beleive and will never beleive that God expects us to just stand and take destruction of our freedoms and life. Reminds me of an old story:
God granting miracles
A religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says “get in, get in!” The religous man replies, “ no I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle.”
Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in god and god will give him a miracle. With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him, but he turns down the offer again cause “God will grant him a miracle.”
With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the request for help for the faith of God. He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down.” St. Peter chuckles and responds, “I don’t know what you’re complaining about, we sent you three boats and a helicopter.”
People in the military and law enforcement are instruments of righteous indignation and are called upon to right a wrong or defend against a wrong...they have a job to do.
That said, if, after their work is done and they have retired from their jobs, they cling to hatred and stew in its anger...it will devour them.
Emotion has no place in a boxing match or a marathon or any other kind of fight...it can get you killed. That is why boxers try so hard to get their opponents to lose their temper.
When I was a kid, my boxing coach always told me..."lose your temper, lose the fight."
That said, I was never a particularly good boxer, in part because I had a nasty temper.;-)
If part A happens then the rules for part B happen. You can not forgive an unending assault. Thank you Quix for much needed clarification.
The whole counsel of Scripture includes that in ONE of the many verses about forgiveness . . . as I documented.
I expected you to seize on it.
I find that verse tied to the context.
I still believe the principle of forgiving all, regardless, is the Scriptural picture.
CERTAINLY we should seek repentance with ourselves and everyone.
However, I’ll not allow my heart, mind, spirit to be clouded by unforgiveness, REGARDLESS.
And I certainly won’t risk eternal death and damnation because of it.
You seem to think that one verse
TRUMPS ALL
the rest.
I find that illogical.
In this case it is very clear, A man is to be slow to anger and forgiving of a repentant man a thousand times seven but it is also clear that to forgive sin when their is no repentance is not righteous.
But, actually, no!
That is only one specific pronouncement of Scripture pertaining to what happens when someone "repents".
A Christian is commanded to "forgive" his enemies PERIOD (not just when his enemy repents) if he wants forgiveness from God (and Christians want and need forgiveness on a daily basis.)
Mat 6:14As has been said upthread in many places, "forgiveness" is not "forgetting"...and it is not done to benefit the one forgiven. It is done to clean hatred out of your heart.For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
You cannot love God with all your heart if a portion of your heart is devoted to hating another person.
That said, just because you forgive a person doesn't mean you shouldn't defend yourself, your family or your country against the efforts of that person to harm or destroy you.
When God calls you to battle, he does not call you to a state of emotional rage. He calls you to action...and that requires the putting aside of emotion so that your body, mind, and spirit might be focused on the job at hand.
I agree about taking the whole of Scripture.
It appears to me that on this issue, you do not.
That one verse does NOT trump all the others.
Scripture is clear that we MUST FORGIVE
as we would like to BE FORGIVEN.
Christ’s prayer—THE LORD’S PRAYER—FROM GOD’S OWN MOUTH—IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR on the matter.
INDEED, SON.
EarthDweller, I strongly encourage you to seek The Lord and
INSURE
that there’s no bitterness lurking in your heart toward anyone.
Bitterness causes many diseases and is a great spiritual as well as relationship trouble.
In my 63 years,
I’ve NEVER observed
unforgiveness
WITHOUT
bitterness.
There are many types of anger and it is an excellent motivator.
When I was speaking of anger re: forgiveness, I was thinking of the harboring of irrational emotional hatred in one's heart.
I regularly get p!ssed off as a means of motivation. Usually the person I get p!ssed off at is myself (that motivates me to push myself to achieve my best).
There is no "trumping" in the Bible..it all fits together like a fabric. You can not disregard any of it parts to favor others or you are plucking out the parts that you like and throwing the rest out.
Anyone can do that to fit anything that they like. It doesn't work that way.
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