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New study raises the possibility that some antiviral drugs could make diseases worse
Genetics Society of America ^ | Jan 13, 2010 | Unknown

Posted on 01/13/2010 3:01:23 PM PST by decimon

Research published in the journal Genetics suggests that mutagenic drugs designed to kill viruses may make them stronger

As the flu season continues in full-swing, most people can appreciate the need for drugs that stop viruses after they take hold in the body. Despite this serious need for new drugs, a team of researchers from the University of Texas at Austin raise serious concerns about an emerging strategy for stopping viral infections. According to their research report appearing in the January 2010 issue of the journal GENETICS, medications that cause viruses to die off by forcing their nucleic acid to mutate rapidly might actually, in some instances, cause them to emerge from the process stronger, perhaps even more virulent than before drug treatment.

"This work questions whether the practice of 'lethal mutagenesis' of viruses works as predicted," said Jim Bull, Ph.D., a researcher involved in the study from the Institute for Cellular and Molecular Biology at the University of Texas at Austin. "It remains to be seen whether an elevated mutation rate that does not cause rapid viral extinction enhances treatment or may instead thwart treatment by enhancing viral evolution." Bull's research collaborators included Rachael Springman, Thomas Keller, and Ian Molineux from the same institution.

Scientists tested the model of viral evolution at high mutation rates by growing a DNA virus in the presence of a mutagenic agent. The current accepted model predicted that the virus would not be able to handle the high mutation rates and would eventually die off. However, this study proved the model false, as the virus actually increased its fitness at elevated mutation rates. During this study, scientists found molecular evidence that rapid mutations had two effects. The first effect of most mutations, which was expected, was that they killed or weakened the virus. The second effect of some mutations, however, was that they actually helped the virus adapt and thrive. Although the researchers did not question that extremely high mutation will lead to viral extinction on the whole, this discovery raises the specter that forcing viruses to undergo rapid mutations could, if the mutation rate is not high enough, accidentally lead to well-adapted "super viruses."

"This study should raise more than a few eyebrows over this approach to stopping viruses," said Mark Johnston, Editor-in-Chief of the journal GENETICS, "because the last thing anyone wants to do is make a bad situation worse. More work must be done to determine the actual likelihood of this approach yielding a super virus, knowing that it is possible is a big help in preventing what could be a very big problem."

###

DETAILS: R. Springman, T. Keller, I. J. Molineux, and J. J. Bull Evolution at a High Imposed Mutation Rate: Adaptation Obscures the Load in Phage T7 Genetics, Jan 2010; 184: 221 - 232.

Since 1916, GENETICS has covered high quality, original research on a range of topics bearing on inheritance, including population and evolutionary genetics, complex traits, developmental and behavioral genetics, cellular genetics, gene expression, genome integrity and transmission, and genome and systems biology. GENETICS, the peer-reviewed, peer-edited journal of the Genetics Society of America is one of the world's most cited journals in genetics and heredity.


TOPICS: Health/Medicine; Science
KEYWORDS: antiviral; antivirals; flu; viruses

1 posted on 01/13/2010 3:01:26 PM PST by decimon
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To: neverdem; DvdMom

Uberbug ping.


2 posted on 01/13/2010 3:02:08 PM PST by decimon
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To: decimon

From a purely Darwiian standpoint, a really well-adapted virus causes little or no ill effect on its host.

I hate sloppy scietific writing.


3 posted on 01/13/2010 3:05:13 PM PST by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: Jewbacca
And for years I thought I was being an inhospitable host.

Makes sense.

4 posted on 01/13/2010 3:09:00 PM PST by wolfcreek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd7DGqVSIc)
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To: wolfcreek

Yeah, it does a virus no good to kill you, as it then dies.

The really nasty versions of the Plague ceased to exist because, well. . .


5 posted on 01/13/2010 3:11:28 PM PST by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: decimon

The experience with Tamiflu during the Air Force Academy H1N1 outbreak in July seems to indicate that it doesn’t shorten duration of illness or decrease infectivity. I discussed that with another Critical Care doc and his response was, “Then what the F*** are we doing?”


6 posted on 01/13/2010 3:12:41 PM PST by CholeraJoe (The enema of my enemy is my friend!)
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To: Jewbacca
From a purely Darwiian standpoint, a really well-adapted virus causes little or no ill effect on its host.

I think that means an ill-behaved virus dies out for killing its hosts.

7 posted on 01/13/2010 3:13:04 PM PST by decimon
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To: Jewbacca

Be kind to bacteria/viruses. It just mihgt save your life.


8 posted on 01/13/2010 3:15:10 PM PST by wolfcreek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd7DGqVSIc)
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To: decimon
Creating more genetic variation through mutagens in an attempt to kill off a population of rapidly reproducing organisms has a major drawback.

Evolution of living organisms occurs through natural selection of genetic variation.

Thus the selective pressure of the mutagen and the increased genetic variation caused by the mutagen may well give rise to a genetic variation with beneficial (for the virus) attributes.

But as Jewbacca points out, the most beneficial variation for a virus is where they are highly infectious but cause little or no detrimental outcomes to the host species.

9 posted on 01/13/2010 3:22:57 PM PST by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: decimon; Mother Abigail; EBH; vetvetdoug; Smokin' Joe; Global2010; Battle Axe; null and void; ...
micro ping

Evolution at a High Imposed Mutation Rate: Adaptation Obscures the Load in Phage T7

10 posted on 01/13/2010 9:52:17 PM PST by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: 2ndreconmarine; Fitzcarraldo; Covenantor; Mother Abigail; EBH; Dog Gone; ...

Ping....(Thanks, neverdem!)


11 posted on 01/13/2010 10:12:49 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: neverdem

We had the once every 5-7yr flu/cold virus this year.

Just rode it out (bit***ng) all the way.

Having other chronic medical care issues we deal with quite well it is amazing how a cold/flu virus can turn one into a whining baby.
: )

I swear I can feel every part of the body it visits throughout the course and then there is the re-boot/relapse that slaps ya up side the head before it goes into regression or what ever it does.

We were not in a position to run to town and get an antiviral med and did fine on plenty of fluids/rest ect...

I often ponder so much of the stuff pharma companies put out under the guise of science as just a way to earn profits.

The one OTC med KV uses on a regular basis as a quad with spastic lungs is plain Mucinex (brand name for the g word) to keep lung fossils (my name) from forming IOW keep secreations clear.

We have tylonal and advil in the medicine cabinet but rarely have a need to use.

Personally as I age I find that the old Grammas Kitchen cures much better.

Dont misunderstand if we were in need of antibiotics we would use them or any other pharm med.

Just not a need IMO for bouts of viruses, stress headaches, allergies and other non lethal illnesses.
And home remedies out of the cupboard wont set cha back $$$$ such as the OTC remedies.


12 posted on 01/13/2010 10:15:47 PM PST by Global2010 (Strange We Can Believe In)
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To: Smokin' Joe

Thanks for the ping!


13 posted on 01/13/2010 10:32:23 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

You’re welcome, Alamo-Girl!


14 posted on 01/13/2010 10:37:18 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

Thanks for sending the ping.


15 posted on 01/14/2010 1:59:15 AM PST by nw_arizona_granny ( http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/21813ht92/posts?page=1 [Survival,food,garden,crafts,and more)
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To: Smokin' Joe

Thanks for the heads-up!


16 posted on 01/14/2010 6:05:46 AM PST by bethybabes69 (Between you, and whatever you call God, there is no authority, only an illusion of it.)
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To: decimon

Simply put, medicine has long held the idea that the way to defeat a pathogenic disease is by killing it. But this invokes natural selection, as these pathogens don’t want to be killed. So it adapts to protect itself.

A better way is to interfere with the mechanisms the pathogens use to invade and replicate. This makes it much more difficult for natural selection to create an organism that can get by such defenses.


17 posted on 01/14/2010 6:23:19 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: decimon; DvdMom

I see that nobody seemed to have learned much from anti-biotics.

That should have been the first thing that they considered that anti-viral resistant forms of viruses would crop up just as the anti-biotic resistant strains of bacteria did and so not prescribed stuff like Tamiflu prophylactically.

My daughter came down with the swine flu (they could trace the transmission from someone who was tested and confirmed to have it) and my PCP wrote out a prescription for everyone in the family. She took it because she caught it within the first day or so. She knew she had been exposed so when she started showing symptoms, it was no surprise. The rest of us were exposed as well and we THINK that my youngest daughter had it as well, but aren’t sure. She wasn’t sick enough.

The article isn’t exactly correct that it would make the viruses stronger. What it would do is that if stronger strains became anti-viral resistant, they would be harder to treat and more prevalent because they couldn’t be treated, and so be more likely to kill.

BTW, did you notice that the swine flu just kind of died out on its own? It was just about the time my oldest caught it, about Oct, IIRC, and then that was about the last you heard about it. I haven’t even heard of the regular flu being much of an issue.


18 posted on 01/14/2010 7:05:57 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Global2010
The one OTC med KV uses on a regular basis as a quad with spastic lungs is plain Mucinex (brand name for the g word) to keep lung fossils (my name) from forming IOW keep secreations clear.

Just so everyone knows, you can find the Mucinex off brands MUCH cheaper about anywhere. You just need to be aware that Mucinex is 600 mg tablets and the generics are 400.

My allergist prescribes 1,200 mg twice a day for sinus congestion and says (confirmed by a pharmacist) that it is very safe even at those doses; that guaifenesin is a very safe, very old medication. What I like about guaifenesin over Sudafed, is that it does the job without making you feel like a space cadet. It does not have the side effects that Sudafed does.

19 posted on 01/14/2010 7:13:12 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
BTW, did you notice that the swine flu just kind of died out on its own?

That seems to be the norm for flus. They run their course according to their makeup and not our arbitrary time lines.

20 posted on 01/14/2010 7:13:57 AM PST by decimon
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To: CholeraJoe
“Then what the F*** are we doing?”

The modern version of blood letting to balance the humors.

21 posted on 01/14/2010 7:53:59 AM PST by null and void (We are now in day 358 of our national holiday from reality. - 0bama really isn't one of US.)
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To: 2ndreconmarine; Fitzcarraldo; Covenantor; Mother Abigail; EBH; Dog Gone; ...

I haven’t up-dated the main swine flu thread , I’ve been really busy..... I have been asked by other freepers to up-date it . I hope to do that soon.

There has been some recent disturbing info from Ukraine according to Dr. Niman. I posted the story and link below .

There are still current articles like the below one that was published today talking about a 3rd wave of H1N1 , and articles saying H1N1 has replaced the regular flu like this article ...


I was also asked by another freeper this question ?

Have you heard of any secondary blood infections up to 12 weeks later with H1N1?

If anyone reading this has any answers to the above question please reply back. Thanks :)



Has the flu flown the coop? Maybe, but don’t bet on it

Published Thursday January 14, 2010
By Rick Ruggles
WORLD-HERALD STAFF WRITER
http://www.omaha.com/article/20100114/LIVING07/701149875?

H1N1 flu might have muscled seasonal flu into obscurity.
Common, seasonal flu right now is almost nonexistent in Nebraska and Iowa, and it’s showing little clout elsewhere. Some medical experts in the Midwest wonder whether January, February and March, typically heavy flu months, might be virtually free of seasonal flu and may see little H1N1 activity, too.

They warn, however, that there are no promises when it comes to flu and that another wave of H1N1 might take seasonal flu’s place early this year.
“The crystal ball is fuzzy and hazy and murky,” said Dr. Tom Safranek, state epidemiologist for Nebraska.

“Influenza has a way of humiliating people who think they have a handle on this stuff.”

Doctors suspect that H1N1 flu has supplanted seasonal flu strains as the dominant flu. Historically, pandemic flu strains such as H1N1 have become the dominant strain for several years or longer, but the reason is unclear.
“For whatever reason, seasonal (flu) has not been able to compete,” said Dr. Marvin Bittner, an infectious disease specialist at Creighton University and the VA Medical Center in Omaha.


The below H1N1 article talks about permanent lung damage ...


A/H1N1 flu causes permanent lung damage to some patients in Finland

www.chinaview.cn 2010-01-14 19:17:56
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2010-01/14/content_12810343.htm?

HELSINKI, Jan. 14 (Xinhua) — A/H1N1 flu has caused permanent pulmonary damage to some patients in Finland, according to Finnish media report Thursday.

In Kuopio, the city situated in the middle part of Finland, five people who were in intensive care with the A/H1N1 virus developed serious lung problems. For example, one healthy 40-year-old woman’s lungs have been incurably damaged.

In these patients, the A/H1N1 virus caused viral pneumonia, which caused their lungs to fill up with liquid. When the infection recedes, the lungs can have fibrosis, or basically damaged and hardened tissue.

Kuopio’s University Hospital plans to bring every A/H1N1 flu patient who was treated in their pulmonary ward back for further testing.

Irma Koivula, an infectious diseases specialist at the Kuopio University Hospital, said that anyone who contracts A/H1N1 virus is at risk for the same kind of lung damage. She stressed that it is important to get the A/H1N1 flu vaccine, which is being offered to everyone at public health care centers in Finland.


Risk of death ten times higher in children with H1N1

12/28/20092:26 pm

Vanderbilt researcher, while working in his native country of Argentina, has found that children with H1N1 influenza die at a rate 10 times higher than those who suffer from seasonal flu.

Dr. Fernando Polack, the Cesar Milstein associate professor of Pediatrics in the Department of Pediatrics at Vanderbilt, describes the serious impact of the H1N1 influenza virus on children in an article titled Pediatric Hospitalizations Associated with H1N1 Influenza in Argentina, published in the Dec. 23, 2009, issue of the New England Journal of Medicine. The overall death rate with H1N1 was 1.1 per 100,000 children, compared to .1 per 100,000 for seasonal flu in 2007.

Polack also details which children were at highest risk. Due to Argentina’s location in the southern hemisphere, Polack was able to collect detailed surveillance data during the peak of the H1N1 virus outbreak in Buenos Aires in June. His cohort included six hospitals that combine to serve 1.2 million children.

“One thing that was striking was the tremendous impact on hospital logistics. Routine surgeries were cancelled; mass infection control practices were put in place; wards doubled— particularly in ICU’s, with everyone working over capacity. It was pretty rough,” Polack said.

Dr. Kathryn Edwards, Sarah H. Sell Chair in Pediatrics and director of the Vanderbilt Vaccine Research Program, is a coauthor on the article. Edwards says the H1N1 outbreak showcases opportunities which can result from observing opposing seasonal illness peaks from the northern to the southern hemispheres. The hope is that scientists can learn to respond more quickly to a developing pandemic.

“Flu is a global disease and we need to work together to understand and deal with each flu virus,” Edwards said.

The first author of the article is Argentinean pediatrician Dr. Romina Libster, who is currently in Nashville working as a research specialist with the VVRP. Libster said Polack realized what was happening when reports began to arise in Mexico that a new flu virus was causing serious illness.

Contact: Laurie Holloway (615) 322-474
laurie.holloway@vanderbilt.edu

http://sitemason.vanderbilt.edu/news/campusnews/2009/12/28/risk-of-death-ten-times-higher-in-children-with-h1n1.102992


Key to H1N1 puzzle? Look to molecule 17

Joseph Hall
HEALTH REPORTER
http://www.healthzone.ca/health/newsfeatures/swineflu/article/739405—key-to-h1n1-puzzle-look-to-molecule-17

Why did H1N1 cause some to develop pneumonia and die while leaving most with only mild flu symptoms?

The answer might lie in the elevated presence of a single molecule in those who suffered most from the virus, according to international research led by Toronto scientists.

“We’ve been doing this for many years and this is the first real clue we’ve had between severe and mild illness,” says Dr. David Kelvin, head of experimental therapeutics at Toronto’s University Health Network.

“It’s the first thing we can put our finger on and actually say ‘this is an area (where) we should intensify our research efforts,’” said Kelvin, the senior study author.

The molecule, known as interleukin 17, may be the culprit causing severe symptoms in a host of seasonal influenzas and other respiratory ailments like SARS, he said.

The study appears this week in the journal Critical Care.

H1N1 has caused 390 deaths in Canada since first emerging in late April. The World Health Organization has estimated at least 9,596 people worldwide have died.

Looking at a group of otherwise healthy Spanish patients during H1N1’s initial appearance, the study found that those with severe symptoms also had elevated levels of interleukin 17.

Known as a cytokine, the molecule is one of several that help regulate the body’s immune response to viruses and bacteria. But interleukin 17 is also associated with such inflammatory autoimmune diseases as rheumatoid arthritis and asthma, Kelvin said.

It is this inflammatory function that is likely at play in flu sufferers with elevated levels, he said. “When we found that there were high levels of (interleukin 17) in severe patients and not in the mild patients, we thought that was a clue to what was driving the inflammation in the lungs of those severe patients.”

Kelvin said it is not known whether high levels of the molecule are always present in the severe flu patients, or if they simply produce more in response to the virus. In either case, the molecule has rich potential as a screening target to predict which H1N1 sufferers will develop severe disease, said Ted Ross of the University of Pittsburgh’s Center for Vaccine Research.

“If it’s high early in infection, it looks like you’re going to have a more severe outcome and therefore you can screen patients,” said Ross, in commenting on the paper.

Ross said interleukin 17 also presents a promising target for new drugs that could help patients recover from H1N1 pneumonias.

“I think it would be very useful as a screening-type tool and I also think that some time in the future therapies that target (interleukin 17) may be very helpful, not only in this illness but in other viral illnesses.”

There are already drugs in animal trials that are proving successful at blocking the actions of interleukin 17. These might soon be available for human trials, Ross said.

As well, people who tested positive for high interleukin 17 levels early in the ailment’s progression could be given higher doses of antiviral drugs like Tamiflu.

Kelvin also said people known to produce higher levels could go to the top of any vaccine lineups as new pandemic viruses emerge.

While the study was conducted on Spanish patients, much of the blood analysis that pointed to interleukin 17 was done in Kelvin’s Toronto lab. Further studies are being conducted in China and other countries.


Key to H1N1 puzzle? Look to molecule 17

December 16, 2009 - Toronto Star - excerpts

“Why did H1N1 cause some to develop pneumonia and die while leaving most with only mild flu symptoms? The answer might lie in the elevated presence of a single molecule in those who suffered most from the virus, according to international research led by Toronto scientists. “We’ve been doing this for many years and this is the first real clue we’ve had between severe and mild illness,” says Dr. David Kelvin, head of experimental therapeutics at Toronto’s University Health Network.

“It’s the first thing we can put our finger on and actually say ‘this is an area (where) we should intensify our research efforts,’” said Kelvin, the senior study author. The molecule, known as interleukin 17, may be the culprit causing severe symptoms in a host of seasonal influenzas and other respiratory ailments like SARS, he said. The study appears this week in the journal Critical Care.

It is this inflammatory function that is likely at play in flu sufferers with elevated levels, he said. “When we found that there were high levels of (interleukin 17) in severe patients and not in the mild patients, we thought that was a clue to what was driving the inflammation in the lungs of those severe patients.”

Kelvin said it is not known whether high levels of the molecule are always present in the severe flu patients, or if they simply produce more in response to the virus. In either case, the molecule has rich potential as a screening target to predict which H1N1 sufferers will develop severe disease, said Ted Ross of the University of Pittsburgh’s Center for Vaccine Research.”

http://tinyurl.com/yellocl


Commentary

Ukraine Fatalities Jump to 940 - Over 4 Million Infected
Recombinomics Commentary 13:20
January 12, 2010

4,106,091 Influenza/ARI

242,246 Hospitalized

940 Dead

The above tally is the latest from the Ukraine Ministry of Health website. The number dead has increased by 22 in the past 24 h and 42 in the past 48 h, which is close to one death per hour, even though the number of cases per day has decline so only 5 of the 27 regions remain above the epidemic threshold. In the past 2 days there were 7 deaths recorded for Kyiv and 6 for Donetsk, which now has 134 deaths (see map).

The high rate of fatalities is of concern because of the high frequency of fatal cases with receptor binding domain changes. Although several countries have a case fatality rate for H1N1 patients with D225G/N, in Ukraine all 8 sequences from fatal cases have D225G, D225N, or both.

Moreover, similar changes are being reported for adjacent regions in Russia and Moldova, and spikes in fatalities are also being reported in countries in the region, including a cluster in Romainia

Ukraine is being careful watched because of concerns that the sub-clade with these receptor binding domain changes will became more common, leading to a higher rate of severe and fatal cases. Recent sequences from the Kyiv area had both D225G and D225N, which corresponds to the spread of fatal H1N1 cases.

Sequences from fatal cases in eastern Ukraine would be useful.

link is http://www.recombinomics.com/News/01121002/Ukraine_940.html


22 posted on 01/14/2010 8:19:22 AM PST by DvdMom (Freeper Smokin' Joe does the freeper Avian / H1N1 Ping List)
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To: metmom

Yes the plain mucinex that gaufastuff.

I prefer the childrens liqued dose 3times a day as it easily goes via KVs g-tube (nothing by mouth).

I have not seen non brand name Liqued Mucinex.

It works for our care routine.

Also went to the rare day long away trip to Costco and found liqued Vit D in two big bottles.

That was a huge find as the oil filled V-D is not compatible with his the medical appliance that feeds him and the tablets have a horrible resin too.

So the liqued V-D is a non oil/resin and 10cc is the amount of daily mg he uses.

Only thing I have to get in the habit is grabbing the dose from the fridge (has to kept in fridge) before I get busy on the shift it is going to be given to him.

But thanks anyways for the tip.


23 posted on 01/14/2010 9:00:47 AM PST by Global2010 (Strange We Can Believe In)
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To: DvdMom

See even the H1N1 virus is anti Obama and minions.

It died out just so it could laugh with the rest viral world at another Obama-Gaffe. : )


24 posted on 01/14/2010 9:07:29 AM PST by Global2010 (Strange We Can Believe In)
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To: Global2010

I believe Wal-Mart has their name brand of children’s gaufastuff.(they couldn’t have given it an easier name to spell, could they?)


25 posted on 01/14/2010 9:23:26 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Not the Wal Mart we shop at (only one on the coast withen a days drive)

Also I only go to wal mart as a last resort.

Not a very community friendly/supportive business.

Ticked allot of folks off when the kicked the Boy Scouts tree lot to the curb this year.

It just was not a intrusion on their huge parking (rarely full) lot as they claimed.

Our family shops local whenever we can and my free time is not all that free as a around the clock care provider.

So we shop where KV also can socialize with other locals he knows from over the years.

The area in wal mart where they shelve the Mucinex is also the long line at the pharmacy and trying to excuse ones self to get in a grab the product is like a huge annoyance to those standing in the slow long line.

I dont like the vibe of wal mart shoppers/staff.

Where we shop there is many decade old locals who take the time to stop and chit chat with KV and that is very important to a social bug like him who does not have the ability to freely come and go indenpdently nor I as his primary careprovider.

When I do have a respite day going to places that attract unhappy souls is not my idea of rejuvenation.


26 posted on 01/14/2010 9:43:19 AM PST by Global2010 (Strange We Can Believe In)
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To: decimon; neverdem; nuconvert; DvdMom; SunkenCiv

By giving something that accelerates mutation to a very large number of infectious agents, in this case a strain of a virus, you increase the probability that you will kill many of not most of the viruses. But that is not good enough, it will most likely as well produce a virus that will cause problems.

It only takes one surviving virus that takes over the cell to multiply into several. The viral burst size, i.e., the number of viruses produced in a cell, can be very substantial from 50 to tens of thousands.

This was a result that could be anticipated before it was done.


27 posted on 01/14/2010 10:42:27 AM PST by AdmSmith
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To: Global2010

OK. I’m sure I’ve seen it out there though. Maybe Kinney Drugs or something like that.

Wal-Mart’s are different. There are some I can’t stand going to because of bad vibes, myself. Others are OK.


28 posted on 01/14/2010 11:28:43 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: DvdMom

Thank you for the update.


29 posted on 01/15/2010 2:26:14 PM PST by nw_arizona_granny ( http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/21813ht92/posts?page=1 [Survival,food,garden,crafts,and more)
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