Posted on 06/09/2010 9:01:24 PM PDT by neverdem
Depression is a chemical imbalance, most people think. Researchers, drug manufacturers, and even the Food and Drug Administration assert that antidepressants work by “normalizing” levels of brain neurotransmitters—chemical messengers such as serotonin. And yet hard science supporting this idea is quite poor, says Irving Kirsch, professor of psychology at the University of Hull in the U.K. An expert on the placebo effect, Kirsch has unearthed evidence that antidepressants do not correct brain chemistry gone awry. More important, the drugs are not much more effective against depression than are sugar pills, he says. To support these controversial claims, Kirsch conducted a meta-analysis, digging up data from unpublished clinical trials. When all the evidence is weighed together, Prozac, Paxil, and other such popular pills seem to be at best weakly effective against depression—an argument Kirsch presses in his new book, The Emperor’s New Drugs. Some other research backs up his claims. A study published this winter in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that psychoactive drugs are no better than placebos for people suffering from mild to moderate depression.
Where did the idea of depression as a chemical imbalance come from? The initial two drugs, imipramine and iproniazid, that were discovered and promoted as effective antidepressants both seemed to increase the amount of serotonin in the brain. It was discovered afterward that one of them seemed to block the reabsorption of serotonin, leaving it to linger longer at cell receptors, and the other blocked the destruction of the serotonin neurotransmitters in the synapses in the brain.
Then there was an observational finding that a drug called reserpine produced depression. Reserpine decreased the available serotonin, so...
(Excerpt) Read more at discovermagazine.com ...
I started imipramine (Tofranil) when I was 6 when my parents should have been on the meds, instead. I was finally able to be medication free at 30 after spending several thousands of dollars on psychotherapy. Both of my parents are on meds. They are still crazy, but at least I can recognize that THEY are crazy. lol
That was my impression as well. I had two different colleagues battle depression. I watched them seem to wilt further and further as the days passed - slipping deeper into depression. I was at times afraid they would commit suicide. Drugs stabilized them while they worked out their emotional problems.
Consumer Reports did a fairly interesting study in 1995. Here’s an excerpt of the abstract: “Abstract. Consumer Reports (1995, November) published an article which concluded that patients benefited very substantially from psychotherapy, that long-term treatment did considerably better than short-term treatment, and that psychotherapy alone did not differ in effectiveness from medication plus psychotherapy. Furthermore, no specific modality of psychotherapy did better than any other for any disorder; psychologists, psychiatrists, and social workers did not differ in their effectiveness as treaters; and all did better than marriage counselors and long-term family doctoring. Patients whose length of therapy or choice of therapist was limited by insurance or managed care did worse. “
http://horan.asu.edu/cpy702readings/seligman/seligman.html
Excerpt written by Martin Seligman
Antidepressants can be a blessing to some and as bad as LSD to others. I've seen first hand the good and the harm they can do to different people. I doubt one in ten doctors prescribing them would recognize Serotonin Syndrome for example. Many Shrinks as well are quite clueless about it.
If you take SSRI's and get a headache and/or upset stomach tell your doctor. If he brushes it ff find another or another till you find one with enough smarts to listen.
If a person has sensory processing related issues such as Inner Ear disorders be very careful with these drugs.
I don't doubt for a minute people can get severely depressed to the point of needing an appropriate medication. This could be true no matter the origin but the origin of the depression should be by all practical attempts to be determined. The origin needs to be determined so proper treatment can be obtained.
Doctors need to take the potential for adverse reactions seriously. It really gets me how many doctors come unglued at the mention of such medications as Xanax, Valium, Librium, or other related benzodiazepine class medicines. The same doctors will write a prescription for say Zoloft or Paxil and not give any thought to it. I have never seen anyone taking Valium, Xanax, or Other Benzo, hallucinate from it. On the contrary benzodiazepine are the protocol antidote medication for stopping a Serotonin Migration in progress. I have however seen persons given SSRI's and other antidepressants do just that.
I am among those who must never take any antidepressant due to sensory processing damage. It can affect me like LSD. Sad to say many persons taken into emergency rooms with advanced Serotonin Syndrome will only be given more of it as the treatment. They will label the patient psychotic and treat with medications that only make matters worse. No not even an unconscious patients makes some doctors think hey maybe there is something bad wrong here.
I'm not on an anti-antidepressant rant but doctors need to realize the somewhat rare but very real dangers of these drugs. They can be far, far, more dangerous than any benzodiazepine tranquilizer such as Valium, Xanax, or Librium. Patients would be very surprised to know just how little many shrinks know about the medications they prescribe.
I completely agree that these drugs can be very, very dangerous. We do not want to mess with the serotonin levels. I was on one for three months, and if I was even 1 hour late to take the pill, I would have the worst nightmares that night, nightmares that I have never experienced before or since, coming from my own private personal terror imagination. Since I was a new mom, that meant seeing my child tortured and killed before my eyes, etc. Weaning off of these drugs is HELL. It can be like weaning off of an opiate. You need to be under a doctor’s care.
Anti-depressants are called “soul suckers” on the street because of their massively inhibiting effect on a person’s conscience and empathy.
These effects also suppress anger, which is why if someone stops taking them suddenly, without at least a six-month tapering-off, they can (and often do) explode into rages, many times murderous.
So people who take them can destroy others mentally, emotionally or physically and simply not care, while people who come off of them wrong can destroy people mentally, emotionally or physically out of uncontrollable rage.
Yes, they help *some* depression. But they are given out like candy to millions of people at every age group, and as a result have massively negative, chronically sociopathic psychological effects on vast swaths of the population, from children to youths to adults.
And MOST liberals are on them - WAY more than 50%.
Proof postive!
Besides, depression can be a chemical imbalance in the brain. No amount of counseling, placebos, blah, blah, blah is going to help that. ONLY DRUGS!
Had it not been for this forum and some discussions I had a long time ago with some Freepers as well as prayer for answers when this happened she could have died. She was taken off all medications but Ativan and was OK within 24 hours. In walks a Shrink and doubles the Zoloft. Within one our of taking that pill she was in it again. They still didn't think. I went home and got on line and on search with Zoloft +Trazadone +Adverse reaction had thewers in seconds.
My wife has severe neurlogical and sensory damage. She is a quadriplegic. The SSRI's were giver her to help overcome a bad reaction to a medication a dentist had given her that put her in a COMA. She has taken benzodiazepine {Xanax} for 25 years now a low dose at .5mg three times a day.
I am disgnosed as having General Anxiety Disorder of non phobic origin. My sensory processing system is basicaly shot. They tried me on SSRI's about 16 years ago when this hit me. First was Paxil which blocked my bladder. the others gave me bad headaches, increased anxiety, irratibility, and headaches. My actual disorder or combination thereof has no given name.
A doctor took me off of them and on Xanax at .5mg four times a day and I can somewhat function. I also have seizure activity from the senory issues. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy does not work for this either. I've had this, Depression, PTSD, and OCB all at the same time with one triggering and feeding on the other. The Depression and OCB which was merely a compensation issue and was the first to leave. The PTSD took several years with a therapist. I had gone through a lot of bad things in a few years time.
The G.A.D. {name given for disability reasons} is a neurological issue caused in part by Inner Ear issues, hearing loss and severe Tinitus issues, vision issues including single eye functional, all combined which I've had since early childhood and was mistaken for ADD ADHD. Nope Ritalin sure don't help neither LOL. For some SSRI's are the only thing that works. For some like my wife and I benzodiazepines like Xanax are the only thing that work and all the text book writings about long term use and it not working didn't happen with us. For me it's the only thing that does work.
I am so grateful that you and your wife have medications available that help. I think these meds are of critical importance but I also see them overprescribed to people who are in bad marriages, life sucking jobs etc.
For those who have physical/chemical needs - sometimes there seems to be no chemical fix. I recall meeting an 19 year who had dark circles under his eyes - the result of 8 years of deep depression. He watched all his friends go away to school and he tried to go to but it was too hard with his depression. He had tried all the drugs, nothing helped. His pain was so palpable, I just wanted to hug him - as if THAT ‘cure’ had not been tried by his own mom!
Good for you. I’m glad to hear you’ve found a healthy solution that can be a way of life, not a “prescription for change” via pills. I’ve tried both (pills & diet change) and have to say that although the pills seemed to help, especially initially, really it’s about being present and learning the tools of dealing with what’s going on (or with whatever went on in the past). Even just cutting out the processed food adds an amazing clarity to my thinking and stability to my emotions, not to mention an almost total absence of PMS (true story!). THAT is a side-effect I love.
Baloney. The most clinically depressed person I've ever known also drinks more water than anyone I've ever known.
Your pat diagnosis and cure are hokum.
I have one very dear to me who has battled clinical depression the 25 years I've known her. Many reasons some which will never go away in this life. A very talented LCSW has made living with it a lot more bearable though. Another person close to me takes Luvox. It works fine. Yet another one nothing will help. Depression can sometimes be overcome and sometimes despite every-ones best efforts and intentions can not. The pain is very bit as real to that person as cancer is to another. What works for one may be impossible or make matters worse for another.
I consider myself fortunate to only have what I have. That might be hard for some to understand but it was better than the several things I thought I had and for good reasons :>} It won't kill me. Sometimes make me think I'm dieing but it won't kill me. What scared me to death 16 years ago is now just an major inconvience I know will pass.
“We do not want to mess with the serotonin levels.”
Oh, yes “we” do! I was on serotonin reuptake inhibitors for seven years. Though I’m a guy (it makes a difference), I wasn’t taking them for depression (arachnoiditis from a spinal cord tumor). Since I didn’t want to mess with long-term opiates to fight the pain, this class of drug was what I chose. I can’t tell you about psychological effects, since I really didn’t notice any changes in that regard. The pain was far more controllable though. In my case, no depression meant no psychiatric complications. I actually slept better, but that was probably due to the lower pain levels.
I would still be on them, but they finally put a spinal cord implant/stimulator into my spinal canal. Presto! No more need for the drugs. I might have cried after the surgery, but I assure you that they were tears of joy.
You’re right about coming off them. I did it within a month, and it was......unpleasant. I was really cranky. Most of the time I just stayed clear of the rest of the family, but it was a titrated transition. All things considered the irritability was quite minor, but I did notice it. Now it’s all behind me (literally). Those pills were a great benefit to me, since long term treatment with opiates is a dead end street anyway, with lots of unpleasant side effects. SRI’s were a godsend for me before the stimulator became available. In all the time I was taking them I never noticed a mood/psychiatric problem.
Oddly enough, you’re supposed to have an MMPI test before implantation. I declined, telling my pain specialist that I really didn’t want to find out if I was crazy. Apparently, he didn’t want to find out either, and gave me a pass. I have my suspicions about my own sanity, but as long as I don’t know it for sure it makes life easier. ;-)
One dont equal the other. He could be drinking massive amounts of water yet still be Dehydrated.
Some of the folks subjected to massive amounts of agent orange had this symptom.
The usual quack psychologist.
Lazy social science PhD pretending to be a “doctor.”
So true. Some years ago I was prescribed one of the SSRI's. I tolerated it reasonably well, but went off of it when I got tired of feeling like a bit of a robot. Both ups and downs were removed, and I didn't like the trade-off.
The second time I was prescribed the same drug, I didn't worry about side effects, since I'd had it before. What I didn't think about was that in the intervening years I'd been prescribed Imitrex for my migraines. One stress-filled day I took an Imitrex tablet for my headache and ended up in the ER with a cardiac arrhythmia. The ER docs checked me out, sent me home with some Xanax, and said to go see a cardiologist if it happened again. They never discussed possible medication interactions.
When I came out of my Xanax fog, I started doing some online research and learned that the combination of the SSRI with the Imitrex might well have caused a problem, since both affected serotonin levels. Add in a stressful incident, and I was in trouble. What scares me is that none of these medical professionals picked up on it.
I tossed the SSRI's, worked harder at lifestyle, diet and stress issues, added some Vitamin D3 to the mix, and am doing much better. The cardiac incident was over a year ago, and hasn't been repeated. What I've learned over and over in life is that we need to be our own advocates in this complicated world.
A very interesting post, but I differ on the Wellbutrin matter- it generally takes three weeks of taking it for the brain to experience the effects- however, it is not unusual to feel “weird” after the first day or two of ingesting it.
For most people, depression is due to difficult circumstances in their life (IMHO) and not so much due to a chemical imbalance.
I also have reservations about trusting the same mental health “giants” who decided to remove Homosexuality from the DSM and thereby declare it is “normal” behavior.
Hi, my name’s Jeff. I’m addicted to placebos.
I’d quit. But it wouldn’t make a difference.
I think there may be something to this, but, I would have poo-pooed the idea 6 months ago. I am in nursing school where one is very stressed out and tired all the time. I would get blinding fatigue headaches that no analgesic would touch One day it came to me that maybe the fatigue headaches were linked to dehydration in some oblique way. On the surface at least, I should have been well hydrated. I was drinking the recommend daily amount of fluids so it seemed like an unlikely cause for the pain.
I began to really pay attention and to drinking lots of H20, especially when I was doing clinicals when I had been awake 48 hrs straight . The headaches totally went away. I am not getting any more sleep because of the demand of the nursing program, but at least I don’t have headaches all of the time like I did. Now I wonder if dehydration may have other signs and symptoms that are not usually recognized as such
They might just be fancy placebos - but they still muck with brain chemistry... and that’s NOT good.
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