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Two Planets Discovered Sharing the Same Orbit
Popular Science ^ | Friday, February 25, 2011 | Julie Beck

Posted on 02/27/2011 5:17:43 PM PST by SunkenCiv

It is possible that such a phenomenon could occur when matter around a newborn star forms into planets. In a planet's orbit around a star, there are two places where a third body can safely orbit. These spots, known as Lagrange points, are 120 degrees in front of and behind whichever body is smaller. The discovered co-orbiting planets, located in the four-planet system KOI-730, are always 120 degrees apart, permanent fixtures in each others' night skies.

Fifty million years after the birth of our solar system, the moon may have formed from the debris of a collision between Earth and a Mars-sized body named Theia. For this to be true, Theia would have to have hit earth at a relatively low speed. Richard Gott and Edward Belbruno of Princeton University say that this could only have happened if Theia had originated in a Lagrange point. The discovery of the KOI-730 planets shows that it is possible.

(Excerpt) Read more at popsci.com ...


TOPICS: Astronomy; Science
KEYWORDS: catastrophism; humbug; keywordidiots; koi730; lagrangepoints; pseudoscience; theia; utternonsense; xplanets
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PopSci attribution given to New Scientist.


Two Planets Discovered Sharing the Same Orbit

1 posted on 02/27/2011 5:17:51 PM PST by SunkenCiv
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When the Days Were Shorter
Alaska Science Forum (Article #742) | November 11, 1985 | Larry Gedney
Posted on 10/04/2004 10:31:59 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1234919/posts


2 posted on 02/27/2011 5:19:15 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: KevinDavis; annie laurie; garbageseeker; Knitting A Conundrum; Viking2002; Ernest_at_the_Beach; ...
 
X-Planets
· join · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post new topic · subscribe ·
Google news searches: exoplanet · exosolar · extrasolar ·

3 posted on 02/27/2011 5:19:15 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: 75thOVI; aimhigh; Alice in Wonderland; AndrewC; aragorn; aristotleman; Avoiding_Sulla; BBell; ...
 
Catastrophism
 
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4 posted on 02/27/2011 5:19:16 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv

“the moon may have formed from the debris of a collision between Earth and a Mars-sized body”

Complete nonsense.


5 posted on 02/27/2011 5:22:28 PM PST by Christian Engineer Mass (25ish Cambridge MA grad student. Many younger conservative Christians out there? __ Click my name)
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To: SunkenCiv

I try every day but I haven’t gotten it to shake out this way yet. In fact stable near circular orbits seem relatively uncommon in this simulator.

http://www.nowykurier.com/toys/gravity/gravity.html


6 posted on 02/27/2011 5:26:41 PM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: SunkenCiv

How can they be sure the two planets are orbiting at exactly the same distance from the sun? I know that would present an even more remarkable set of circumstances, but this universe is remarkable.


7 posted on 02/27/2011 5:28:01 PM PST by pallis
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To: SunkenCiv
Theia would have to have hit earth at a relatively low speed

A low speed collision tears my world apart.

I love it.

But I'm gonna wait for the paperback...

8 posted on 02/27/2011 5:29:32 PM PST by bigheadfred (THE ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE HAS BEGUN)
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To: cripplecreek

Thanks for the link.


9 posted on 02/27/2011 5:33:39 PM PST by bigheadfred (THE ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE HAS BEGUN)
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To: bigheadfred

Its not a real detailed simulation but its fun to play with and does give some basic ideas of how gravity interactions play out.


10 posted on 02/27/2011 5:35:33 PM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: Christian Engineer Mass

And why is that nonsense? Do you imagine our God is limited in what He can do and how He can do it?


11 posted on 02/27/2011 5:38:44 PM PST by muawiyah (Make America Safe For Americans)
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To: cripplecreek

Basic is about my speed.


12 posted on 02/27/2011 5:39:24 PM PST by bigheadfred (THE ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE HAS BEGUN)
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To: SunkenCiv

The planet in front has a bumper sticker that says “I brake for asteroids!”


13 posted on 02/27/2011 5:39:24 PM PST by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/28/08 and why?)
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To: SunkenCiv
These spots, known as Lagrange points, are 120 degrees in front of and behind whichever body is smaller

Pardon my confusion, but wouldn't one of the pair always be smaller?

Or did they want to mean that the smaller body always determines the orbital characteristics?

14 posted on 02/27/2011 5:39:29 PM PST by mikrofon (Space BUMP)
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To: muawiyah

“Do you imagine our God is limited in what He can do and how He can do it?”

You what? I have actually studied astronomy, and don’t take my understanding of the solar system from magazine articles.

“120-degree planet named gaia” Sheesh. People will believe anything today.


15 posted on 02/27/2011 5:43:00 PM PST by Christian Engineer Mass (25ish Cambridge MA grad student. Many younger conservative Christians out there? __ Click my name)
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To: Christian Engineer Mass
"Complete nonsense."

Please enlighten us as to why you believe the theory is nonsense. How do you believe the Moon came about?

16 posted on 02/27/2011 5:45:01 PM PST by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
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To: Christian Engineer Mass

It is Bizzaro Earth. Directly opposite us from the Sun so we can not see it. Obama came from there on the Mother Ship. That is where he was born and he can not show his real Birth Papers. His mission is to destroy this Earth and redistribute the wealth back to Bizzaro Earth because they already redistributed everything on the whole planet and there is nothing left.


17 posted on 02/27/2011 5:50:24 PM PST by screaminsunshine (34 States)
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To: SunkenCiv

Long as they’re going the same direction...


18 posted on 02/27/2011 5:51:13 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: cripplecreek

Why oh why did you post that link??? I’m going to be playing with that simulator for HOURS on end now!!


19 posted on 02/27/2011 5:56:54 PM PST by BCR #226 (07/02 SOT www.extremefirepower.com...The BS stops when the hammer drops.)
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To: screaminsunshine

Anti stimulus?


20 posted on 02/27/2011 5:57:58 PM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: Christian Engineer Mass
The reference was to LaGrange points ~ are you telling me they no longer exist?

Gee whiz, I have friends in the Astronomy Racket too! They sometimes talk out of school and give away the secrets.

21 posted on 02/27/2011 6:00:29 PM PST by muawiyah (Make America Safe For Americans)
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To: mikrofon
I understand why you are confused by that statement. So am I. 120 degrees is exactly one third of the orbit. If the large planet is 120 degrees in front then, obviously, the small planet is 120 degrees behind and vice versa.

These spots, known as Lagrange points, are 120 degrees in front of and behind whichever body is smaller.

Why not say "a Lagrange point is 120 degrees in front of and behind whichever body is bigger?" Regardless of which one is in front they will be 120 degrees apart according to what has been said here.

22 posted on 02/27/2011 6:00:40 PM PST by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/28/08 and why?)
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To: SunkenCiv

Some of the issues with the Theia hypothesis:

The ratios of the Moon’s volatile elements are not explained by the giant impact hypothesis. If the giant impact hypothesis is correct, they must be due to some other cause.

There is no evidence that the Earth ever had a magma ocean (an implied result of the giant impact hypothesis), and it is likely there exists material which has never been processed by a magma ocean.

The iron oxide (FeO) content (13%) of the Moon, which is intermediate between Mars (18%) and the terrestrial mantle (8%), rules out most of the source of the proto-lunar material from the Earth’s mantle.

If the bulk of the proto-lunar material had come from the impactor, the Moon should be enriched in siderophilic elements, when it is actually deficient in those.

The presence of volatiles such as water trapped in lunar basalts is more difficult to explain if the impact caused a catastrophic heating event.

The Moon’s oxygen isotopic ratios are essentially identical to those of Earth. Oxygen isotopic ratios, which can be measured very precisely, yield a unique and distinct signature for each solar system body, If Theia had been a separate proto-planet, it would probably have had a different oxygen isotopic signature than Earth, as would the ejected mixed material.


23 posted on 02/27/2011 6:02:54 PM PST by Snickering Hound
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To: BCR #226

Somebody else posted it a few weeks back and it runs almost constantly when my computer is online.

One thing that seems to play out true is the fact that binary stars are common. Also interesting is the fact that supermassive objects fling small ones way out at astounding speeds.

I just wish it were far more detailed.


24 posted on 02/27/2011 6:03:42 PM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: SunkenCiv
From this article:

These spots, known as Lagrange points, are 120 degrees in front of and behind whichever body is smaller. The discovered co-orbiting planets, located in the four-planet system KOI-730, are always 120 degrees apart, permanent fixtures in each others’ night skies.

From the link in the linked article.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20160-two-planets-found-sharing-one-orbit.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news

Gravitational "sweet spots" make this possible. When one body (such as a planet) orbits a much more massive body (a star), there are two Lagrange points along the planet's orbit where a third body can orbit stably. These lie 60 degrees ahead of and 60 degrees behind the smaller object. For example, groups of asteroids called Trojans lie at these points along Jupiter's orbit.

Which is it, 60 or 120 degrees? I can't finish my school project until I find out!

25 posted on 02/27/2011 6:10:23 PM PST by Eaker (The problem with the internet, you're never sure the accuracy of the quotes. ~ Abraham Lincoln, 1865)
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To: SunkenCiv
The Lagrange Points referred to in the article (L4 and L5) are 120 degrees apart, not 120 degrees ahead and behind.

The L4 & L5 points are stable. The other three are not.

Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)

LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

26 posted on 02/27/2011 6:17:08 PM PST by LonePalm (Commander and Chef)
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To: Eaker
Technically, the "Trojans" occupy the L5 or trailing point in Jupiter' orbit. The "Greeks" occupy the L4 or leading point.

They are some times collectively referred to as Trojan asteroids.

Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)

LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

27 posted on 02/27/2011 6:21:50 PM PST by LonePalm (Commander and Chef)
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To: mikrofon

Neither. Think of it like spokes on a steering wheel.

The Lagrangians are the same three points, just that two of them are occupied by planets.

You see the same thing, especially with Jupiter, Asteroids at both Lagragian points.


28 posted on 02/27/2011 6:25:51 PM PST by BenKenobi (Don't expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong. - Silent Cal)
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To: Eaker

L2 and L3 are 60 degrees ahead or behind the most massive object.

And I see someone has already explained L4 and L5 lagrange points.


29 posted on 02/27/2011 6:27:23 PM PST by BenKenobi (Don't expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong. - Silent Cal)
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To: SunkenCiv

Maybe John Norman wasn’t as crazy as we thought (nah).


30 posted on 02/27/2011 6:27:33 PM PST by Some Fat Guy in L.A. (Wanna learn humility? Become a Pittsburgh Pirates fan!)
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To: muawiyah

Back doors are not secrete Mr potatoe head


31 posted on 02/27/2011 6:28:30 PM PST by al baby (Hi Mom!!! <sarc>)
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To: Snickering Hound
Doesn't this collision occur BEFORE the Iron Catastrophe?

If so that event would pretty much obliterate all the surface evidence for the collision.

I'd like to note that the statement regarding "magama" in the Wiki article is kind of questionable since, in fact, Earth has a LARGE magma presence immediately under the tectonic plates ~ HUGE HUGE bunch of magma! Silica, calcium, phosphorous, et al, simply floats on top of it ~

32 posted on 02/27/2011 6:39:13 PM PST by muawiyah (Make America Safe For Americans)
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To: Eaker

http://www.physics.montana.edu/faculty/cornish/lagrange.html


33 posted on 02/27/2011 7:03:36 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: Snickering Hound

I wholeheartedly agree that the Moon wasn’t born of the Earth, either through (non-nuclear) fission (TVF’s version is, born to relieve an overspin condition as the heavies sank to the early molten Earth’s core) or impact (the dominant paradigm). The Moon was captured by the Earth sometime in the last five percent of Earth’s existence.


34 posted on 02/27/2011 7:07:09 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: Larry Lucido

Yeah, otherwise...
Spitzer Sees the Aftermath of a Planetary Collision

35 posted on 02/27/2011 7:11:36 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: mikrofon

It means that the writer of the article didn’t really understand what Lagrangian points are. :’)


36 posted on 02/27/2011 7:15:45 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: TigersEye

“Why do we call asteroids asteroids and hemhorrhoids hemhorrhoids? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?” — Robert Schimmel


37 posted on 02/27/2011 7:16:30 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: bigheadfred

The need for low speed has to do with trying to make the scenario work at all. :’)


38 posted on 02/27/2011 7:17:00 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: muawiyah

Well, you know... rumors run wild.

Sorry ZZTop


39 posted on 02/27/2011 7:17:50 PM PST by jurroppi1
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To: Some Fat Guy in L.A.

The paperbacks had some of the best sexist covers, ever. ;’)


40 posted on 02/27/2011 7:19:20 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv

LOL (ahem) if that man is a doctor I don’t want him treating me!


41 posted on 02/27/2011 7:20:50 PM PST by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/28/08 and why?)
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To: Christian Engineer Mass; muawiyah; Snickering Hound; cripplecreek

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2681062/posts?page=2#2


42 posted on 02/27/2011 7:21:11 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: mikrofon
Pardon my confusion, but wouldn't one of the pair always be smaller?

Yes, and whichever one of the pair is smaller, the Lagrange points are 120 degrees in front of it and behind it.

43 posted on 02/27/2011 7:21:42 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: SunkenCiv
The Moon was captured by the Earth sometime in the last five percent of Earth’s existence.

Interesting, so sometime in the last 200-250 million years. Hadn't heard that scenario yet. Must have given the critters in the Triassic period something interesting to look at. (Just guessing it happened at the far end)

44 posted on 02/27/2011 7:23:58 PM PST by The Cajun
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To: SunkenCiv

Our moon is pulling away from the sun, our sun has a time predicted when it will die, earth will not last forever, so the spinning of these planets MUST be a finite point, no?

So when the finite is changed a bit, then what?


45 posted on 02/27/2011 7:26:37 PM PST by Beowulf9
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To: Lancey Howard

And, thusly, the Lagrange points would be 120 degrees in front of and behind the larger one too no matter which one was in front of the other.


46 posted on 02/27/2011 7:28:54 PM PST by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/28/08 and why?)
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To: pallis

Technological advancement has made extrasolar planets discoverable, and estimates of their mass and other characteristics are based on continued info gathering. Among the things that get gathered are more planetary discoveries, which make it possible to make better estimates of the masses of all the bodies. This particular discovery relied on the regular interruptions of the star’s light (it dims just a little as each of these “twin” planets occult the star).


47 posted on 02/27/2011 7:29:07 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: LonePalm; BenKenobi

Thanks!


48 posted on 02/27/2011 7:29:34 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv; TigersEye
“Why do we call asteroids asteroids and hemhorrhoids hemhorrhoids? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?”

I always thought were called hemhorrhoids because they affected both hemhospheres.

49 posted on 02/27/2011 7:30:32 PM PST by bigheadfred (THE ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE HAS BEGUN)
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To: cripplecreek
Also interesting is the fact that supermassive objects fling small ones way out at astounding speeds.

I've seen evidence of this with people at Walmart.

Just sayin'.

50 posted on 02/27/2011 7:30:32 PM PST by SIDENET ("If that's your best, your best won't do." -Dee Snider)
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