Skip to comments.Patent granted for the energy catalyzer [Rossi's E-Cat takes another step toward reality?]
Posted on 05/09/2011 7:33:35 PM PDT by Liberty1970
The Italian energy catalyzer that seems to be based on an unknown nuclear reaction is now patented in Italy. The examination continues regarding protection in the rest of the world.
The Italian Patent Office, Ufficio Italiano Brevetti e Marchi, granted a patent for the energy catalyzer on April 6, 2011, valid until April 9, 2028.
The inventor is Andrea Rossi, while his wife Maddalena Pascucci is the patent owner.
The final content of the patent is public but not directly available online (details on how to order the content can be found here).
According to Rossi ten of the original 15 claims remain (see below).
It is not clear if the patent means that the secret details of the energy catalyst can be revealed.
Now I have to think and, based on the effective patent protection, we can decide what to disclose, Andrea Rossi said.
The patent office in Italy confirmed that it is a normal patent which was granted after technical examination of the filed application.
(Excerpt) Read more at nyteknik.se ...
Something that can power a home, vehicle, and cook breakfast? How much?
This is great news, and adds a lot more credibility to Rossi’s claims.
I’ve noticed a change in mood on this subject around these parts lately. The last thread on the E-cat was a pleasure to read. When I first posted an article about it some time back, I was almost instantly buried in skeptics.
Home nuke ping!
But if you are asking about the cost to produce, the financial resources of the inventor are finite - no more than a few million $. And in Q&A sessions he mentions making around two thousand prototypes. Even assuming these were largely recycled, the implication is that they are not terribly expensive to build. The prototypes shown in demonstrations to date are quite small even with the thick shields and pipe apparatus.
They have also worked reliably in the demonstrations. This suggests the technology is not terribly complex and is robust even in the prototype stage. Again, this suggests the devices will be fairly simple and cheap to build - regardless of what they can charge for them.
It seems absurd, but I an others here have been tracking this story since January, and it has not been debunked (but is rather running in the opposite direction.) Crazy.
ShadowAce, since I am a TECH PING LIST member and read of the E-cat first there, I thought you might like reading this article regarding the device’s being granted a patent. This may not be ping-worthy, but I hope you keep TECH LIST pingees informed of this, whether it crashes and burns or breaks new, unexpected ground. We will know in a few months. Thanks for your great list.
What about Pons and Fleishman?
Is it possible that catalytic nuclear will see the light of day?
“This is great news, and adds a lot more credibility to Rossis claims.”
I began reading about the E-Cat about 10 days ago. I posted after that, that I believed that this device seems to have moved beyond the hoax stage. I generally stand by that uninformed assessment. Hopeful but skeptical until the large indistrial application is up and running and all can see that it works on the large scale.
I say this because I had great hope in the TDP process about 10 years or so ago. It seemed to worked well enough in a lab environment but it failed in the effort to scale it up to an industrial-sized process.
According to some articles I've read here, Pons and Fleishman were falsely discredited by the government/scientific establishment. Apparently, they really were on to something.
Does this mean that nanos are present within this apparatus?
Like you, I don't have the technical grounding to discuss this invention in anything but layman's terms, but from what I understand, Rossi plans to daisy-chain an array of his small devices together to achieve the next greater level of energy output.
Others have speculated on why he's chosen to do that, instead of scaling up the size of his reactor.
If this is the real meal deal we will be running our homes off of a device and maybe when you move to a new house you can just take your energy cell with you. It is going to be great. No more electric and gas bills.
It was rather obvious the day that a researcher in Menlo Park blew himself to kingdom come by sealing the mix in a stainless steel cylinder!
The MSM were so kind as to inform us that he was NOT working on CF.
Cold Fusion Ping
My understanding is that maximizing the surface area of the nickel is vital to achieving kilowatt-scale output. The smaller the particles, the greater the surface area for a given mass of nickel.
Windflier, I suspect they are limiting the size of each E-cat right now due to safety/control issues. They've described how earlier experiments gave power outputs a good deal higher than seen in the public demonstrations, to the point that they were concerned about an explosion or overheating and so on. So it's probably better to daisy-chain small, easily controllable units at this point than try to build a great big megawatt class reactor whose reaction chamber is too big to quickly adjust or shut down in an emergency.
I imagine we'll see a lot of refinement as real engineering resources begin to be applied to the E-cat technology. At this point it's just the inventor and some academics I've seen involved with the E-cat, not really industrial/commercial types, so far as I've noticed. Getting it to produce electricity, and to serve as a powertrain for vehicles, will take some work.
And for all I know something like the vibration of a vehicle in motion might wreck the reaction process (I doubt it, but I'm just saying there could conceivably be some kind of show-stopper for some applications). Still a lot of unknowns at this point. But I am hopeful.
I'll admit that I'll have to do some soul-searching and review things carefully, if this turns out to be a hoax. I'll be interested in understanding how I misjudged the evidence and claims over these past months. But, by degrees, they have been winning me over. It takes more than generic close-mindedness at this point to deal with the evidence that has been presented.
I agree with the heat and hot water, but power cars and trucks will require a conversion process for useful energy. If they can come up with more efficient and economical thermoelectric generators, then there will be more far reaching applications, including self-sustaining reactions.
LOL, I've been following this from the start (even have a little bookmark file in *favorites* on it).
Went from skeptic to a cautious maybe on it.
We'll know if it's real in less than a year.
You know what? This is an impressively thoughtful response. I tend to approach discussions of claimed energy revolutions with pretty poor expectations of the participants, having dealt with all kinds of irrational true believers before, but you have completely disarmed me. Let me give some thought to your post and get back to you.
A "conversion process" already exists. It's called "steam", and was originally "a contendah" for automotive power.
For a time, the Stanley Steamer was actually superior in reliability and performance to ICE driven autos. The thing that killed the steam car was the fact that it took too long to "crank up". Given today's capability for automatic controls, that shouldn't be a problem....just keep the E-Cat "ticking over" at a low level to keep the batteries charged (still need electricity for the various electronics.
Thermoelectric conversion not required. Nice to have, and probably more efficient, but not necessary.
Yes. Sufficiently high temperatures can be had to drive steam power. As another poster theorized, the problem is "control". The LENR process gets more efficient as it's temperature goes up, and has a tendency to "run away" and melt the nickel powder. The consequences obviously aren't anywhere nearly comparable to a fission meltdown (gross understatement), but still not desirable.
I think once large scale production and more R&D is invested, that a solution to that problem (and probably more than one) will be found.
Alright, where did you get that cat? I’ve been looking everywhere for the demotivator poster with that cat on it. It reads something like, “Goodbye world for I must leave this place behind.”
Seriously though, nano-powderized nickel sounds sufficiently specialized that it could be six of one, a half dozen of the other as far as energy expense.
Nothing springs to mind so much as expensive digital printer consumables.
One possibility came to mind when reading the most recent report (from Swedish group). The device output about 4 KW (thermal) and used a (approximately) 400 watt auxiliary electrical heater coil, with the 400 watt auxiliary input power measured by a calibrated voltmeter and ammeter.
What was not clear was the power source for the auxiliary heater. Depending upon the type of voltmeter and ammeter, it would be possible to use a pulse waveform with a high RMS (heating value) and low average power (as measured by average reading voltmeter and ammeter). So, the "auxiliary" heating coil could be operating at 4KW, but measured at 400 watts, thus providing a fake result.
To detect that sort of fake, it would be useful to continuously observe the auxiliary heater power input waveform with an oscilloscope and also to use calibrated RMS-sensing voltmeter and ammeters on the auxiliary heater power leads.
Another way of sneaking power into the device would be to use the water supply pipes as an electrical heating circuit. This would be detectable with a clip on DC-AC ammeter presumably. (I think plastic or rubber tubing is used from the photos I saw, which would make it more difficult to run power through the pipe, although the tubing could have conductors running through it. Or, one might even use the water as a conductor, if it has impurities.)
Not saying this is a fake, just responding to how one might go about faking the results.
If you look at the videos of the demonstrations, you will see that there are two temperature controllers active, one for the internal heater and one for the auxiliary heater. Power for both is supplied by a single cable from the 220V wall plug, which is where the power is measured with a clamp-on ammeter (voltage was also measured at that point). So the power measurements at the wall are indicative of total power drawn. No matter what the waveform out of the "blue box" that contains the temperature controllers, the wall current draw will measure total power.
Since some of the demos were held at the University of Bologna (and not Rossi's factory/R&D facility), the likelihood of "jimmying" the wall power is, I think, pretty miniscule.
But if you're interested, there is a 61 page document floating around the web which purports to have an extensive examination of all the possible ways to "fraudilize" the demos. I think there is a link on the Yahoo H-Ni Fusion group:
A degree of skepticism is good, particularly with all the various claims that float around the internet, most of which appear delusional.
I'm becoming less skeptical, and more hopeful, as time goes by. I still would like to see Rossi's e-cat device run for a month in an independent lab.
As far as e-cat generating power in your basement, that's at least a decade or two away. You do NOT want a high pressure steam turbine in your basement, regardless of the heat source. I COULD see e-cat power plants being built close to the power consumers, taking a load off the high-voltage long-distance transmission grid.
"As much as the market can bear" is not usually the price-point that maximizes profit. For the first couple of years at least, you want the price-point being low enough that your product gains high demand. It is better to make $100 per unit on a hundred million units than $10,000 per unit on a few thousand units.
If it were me, I'd price the e-cat at a price point where it becomes very worth-while to convert existing coal-fired power plants to e-cat, with a discount to the first dozen customers. You KNOW there will be glitches in the first years, and it will take some time to get them operating reliably, and you want your initial customers to still make money even in the face of glitches and breakdowns.
His demos have been producing steam (low-pressure), and I think I've seen something about the device being tested at least to 400 degrees F, which is high enough for respectable steam.
If the thing works well at 400 degrees, then you could take a high-pressure pipe, wrap a bunch of e-cats around it, wrap a thermal-insulating sleeve around the whole setup, and let it go (doing it this way rather than immersing the e-cat means the e-cat doesn't have to deal with high pressures, and makes it easier to service). Water comes in one end of the pipe and high-pressure steam comes out the other end which leads to a turbine.
I could see the e-cat being used in ships, locomotives and long-haul tractor-trailers long before it's used in regular cars. For a large vehicle that will run all day, start-up hassles are much less relevant than running costs. That would free up a lot of diesel for automotive use.
bumping, and thanks!
I would add that the military applications of something like this would be enormous. Tank fuel consumption is measured in “gallons per mile”, and the military uses a LOT of fuel to move supplies by truck hundreds of miles.
I understand your skepticism, but this story is different. It's not following the tired and predictable track of past 'miracle' breakthroughs that turned out to be phony.
This inventor just received a patent from the Italian government for his invention. That's not something that happens to scam artists. He's also demonstrated his invention in front of qualified experts, who have been allowed to measure the inputs and outputs on his device.
The only thing he didn't disclose in those tests, is how his device achieves the observed results. That's understandable, given the fact that until now, he didn't have patent protection.
There's one Freeper (who will probably comment on the thread) who tried to invest a couple hundred K with Rossi, but was turned down. Scam artists don't turn down money.
Rossi may not want to do that until he's holding several international patents. May be a while, yet.
But that hasn't stopped him from demonstrating his device to qualified experts, who have all been allowed to do everything but open the device up to see what's inside.
Thus far, none of these observers has been able to debunk his claims of excess heat generation. To the contrary, they've all verified it.
As far as e-cat generating power in your basement, that's at least a decade or two away.
Seems to me that configuring this device for point-of-use application is the smallest of Rossi's hurdles. That's just text book engineering, as far as I can tell.
He could present a design tomorrow, and it could be a great design. It would still be a decade or two before regulators and insurance underwriters approve it for residential use.
It will need to be demonstrated as working safely for years in controlled commercial/industrial environments before it will be approved for home use.
You could be right, but the pace of technological adoption is blindingly fast today. Not every government will move at the the snail's pace of ours.
If this device is fully proven, and can be configured to power small facilities, it will happen quickly, somewhere.
Also, I'm new to this product...just jumped in a few minutes ago, so these might be dumb questions, but...
Have they confirmed that there's not just an impeller in the system that generates hydrogen that gets combusted? Have they checked the isotope ratio of the copper that is found after the run, confirming that it's not just a typical isotopic blend? Could it be that the water is supersaturated with copper ions that get dropped out (electrolysis/pH/etc.)--or that the "catalyst" isn't copper with a nickel plating that gets taken off during the run?
Seems like there are so many scam possibilities here, and there's no reason to believe this as long as he's unwilling to allow any true controlled scientific testing.
Which is precisely his stated "game plan". But there are hints that the good performance of his 50 cc unit has caused him to move "home applications" up in his mental priority list. Here follows GROSS SPECULATION....the reason for that is that the small unit shows little or no tendency to "run away", as the larger units do. It actually REQUIRES the external heater to stay running.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.