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Beware the Unveiling of the Rossi E-Cat 1 MW Reactor in October
Liberty1970 ^ | August 1, 2011 | Liberty1970

Posted on 08/01/2011 7:01:31 AM PDT by Liberty1970

Beware the Unveiling of the 1 MW Reactor in October

For months those of us watching the E-Cat story unfold have been eagerly looking forward to the last week in October and the unveiling of the first 1 megawatt thermal reactor at Defkalion's factory in Greece. Andrea Rossi has steadfastly refused to provide more public evidence for the reality of the E-cat, pointing instead to the 1 MW reactor operation as the proof everyone should be waiting for.

Skeptics and believers alike have cited this date as well, indicating that we will all know by the end of October whether the world has changed and the Energy Catalyzer is for real.

Or will we?

Rossi, in recent communications, has indicated that some 'elite' American scientists will be at the unveiling of the 1 MW reactor, as well as physicists Dr. Brian Josephson (Nobel laureate), Drs. Kullander and Essen of Sweden, and Dr. Levi. Once concern I have here is that all those named have previously given public statements of support for the E-cat. Not that I expect Rossi to invite his enemies or competitors, but it would be nice to know there are some scientists coming who are not part of Rossi's cheerleading squad, as it were.

Moreover, this event simply cannot be a repeat of the frustrating public demonstrations given earlier this year, which provide evidence but not proof of the operation of the E-Cat. I've frequently heard people comment that you 'can't fake a 1 MW reactor' as if that scale of operation simply can't be performed with hidden, mundane, power generation.

Hogwash. Given the scope of this whole story and the hundreds of millions of dollars already on the table, it would be a simple thing to go to the trouble of pumping 1 MW of electricity into the array of 330 E-Cats with hidden power lines and convert it to thermal energy using resistance heaters embedded in the false E-Cat devices. (I don't think batteries or other on-board power generation would be sufficient for this stage of the scam, if scam it is.)

In recent weeks we've been hearing about how Defkalion is asking for $40 million euros for exclusive manufacturing rights in each country from franchise purchasers. This strikes me as bizarre. Why should I pay as much to supply Luxembourg or Albania as someone else pays for the U.S. or Japan? Why not auction off the franchises to the highest bidder once proof has been established? (That's probably a naive way to go about it too, but strikes me as better than one flat price as I've currently heard.)

The $40 million price tag raises a red flag for me. I hope I'm wrong, but I wonder how many people are willing to take the risk and hand over that kind of money now, or will jump to do so as soon as they see the 1 MW reactor running in October. If this is a scam, that's where the big money is.

So that's my fear - that the 1 MW reactor will turn out to be a fake, but one that pulls in hundreds of millions of euros in the first few weeks before things start to really fall apart as promised shipments of E-cats to independent sources (outside of Rossi's control at last) fail to materialize. My message to Rossi and the folks at Defkalion is: you've still got more than two months. Use it to plan out how you intend to PROVE to us, your customer base and the world at large, that the E-cat is real.

Don't have the E-cat array hidden or embedded in conrete - have it up in as accessible a configuration as possible. Every hose, every power line, anything that could carry a wire should be accessible for inspection and independent metering as applicable. Let the scientists (including some heretofore uncommitted ones) and journals have full access to the setup (as much as safety allows). Have some single E-cats also set up, operational and available for inspection and metering. Let the visitors bring their own equipment for inspection and metering. I understand you need to keep some trade secrets, but find ways to let independent researchers prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the E-cat is doing what you say it is doing, without any hidden power sources.

Engage the honest skeptics now to understand what we'd like to see, what we need to see, to really satisfy everyone. Please.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Conspiracy; Science; Weird Stuff
KEYWORDS: canr; cmns; coldfusion; defkalion; ecat; lenr; rossi; skeptic
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Maybe if we can put together some good suggestions on how Defkalion should enable independent verification of the 1 MW reactor we can pass this along to them. Ideas?
1 posted on 08/01/2011 7:01:37 AM PDT by Liberty1970
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To: Liberty1970
Maybe if we can put together some good suggestions on how Defkalion should enable independent verification of the 1 MW reactor we can pass this along to them. Ideas?

My gut feeling is that if this were a truly viable and real system, they wouldn't need suggestions on how to verify it. Good science operates in the open.

2 posted on 08/01/2011 7:05:35 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: Liberty1970; B4Ranch; Kevmo
I'm pretty ignorant regarding business deals, but can anyone more knowledgeable in such matters comment on the reports about Defkalion offering a set franchise price for E-cat production rights by country? Does that make any kind of sense?

Also, does anyone have a source for the report that Defkalion is selling franchises? All I can find right now are blogs and discussion boards mentioning it, nothing official. I hope I'm not muddling any facts.

3 posted on 08/01/2011 7:07:35 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (For by grace are you saved through faith.)
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To: Liberty1970
I would have liked Rossi to supply a few E-Cats to independent scientists for validation. Give them each an E-Cat in a sealed, locked "black box" with a power lead in, water input pipe, and steam output pipe, and let them play with it.

The lack of openness is starting to get to me.

4 posted on 08/01/2011 7:09:57 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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To: dirtboy

So far all its produced are promises and hype.


5 posted on 08/01/2011 7:10:40 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: Liberty1970

My guess is that the ‘secrecy’ is because the ‘technology’ is so simple and could be built in anybodies’ garage with off-the-shelf- parts. The Chinese are going to steal it, that’s a given. The rest of the world will makes them on their own using whatever scheme they can to copy it. The Rossi Group wants to make as much money as they possibly can as fast as they can before the design gets viral on the internet and every redneck on earth has one in their back yard.................


6 posted on 08/01/2011 7:12:24 AM PDT by Red Badger ("Treason doth never prosper.... What's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.")
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To: Liberty1970

Why not just wait until the thing is unveiled? It will either “fly” or it will not. What is 40 million Euros to a person with the money to spend? I know I know, it is their own money, and if they fork it over without absolutely KNOWING what they are buying, it is their problem.


7 posted on 08/01/2011 7:12:31 AM PDT by runninglips (Republicans = 99 lb weaklings of politics.)
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To: dirtboy
I largely agree, but what I'm hoping to avoid is something where Defkalion offers "X, Y and Z" as evidence, and skeptics say "But what we really wanted to see is A, B and C!" for proof. If there is a sort of shared concensus amongst the various parties of what steps need to be taken then this can be avoided.

Of course, once an E-cat finally ships to a private customer none of this will be necessary. The problem is with any financial risks being born until that point.

8 posted on 08/01/2011 7:12:38 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (For by grace are you saved through faith.)
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To: Liberty1970
Rossi has repeatedly said that he is not interested in verification. The only verification that he says is needed, is the market. Of course, that only applies if his customers are not required to pay before they can independently confirm that the device does what it says.

There have been lots of scams where even ordinary goods were promised for upfront money, only to have the schemers abscond with the funds before anything was delivered.

9 posted on 08/01/2011 7:14:10 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: Liberty1970

I’ve been following this story from a strictly non-scientific prospective (I’m an Accountant, and only took 1 college level course in general chemistry). All I can say is if this guy is a con-artist he must be a dang good one to have to have fooled governments, companies, and many in the scientific establishment and to what end? He must surely know that if this turns out be a fraud, he’s going to be run out of town on a rail and probably end up in the big house for fraud if he accepts all this money on something he knows does not work.


10 posted on 08/01/2011 7:15:47 AM PDT by apillar
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To: Liberty1970
In my career I have been involved in several negotiations regarding country licensing rights. Mostly it is a legal protection thing and a funding generator. I would be doing the same as Rossi were I in his position. BTW $40m is chump change if this thing works.
11 posted on 08/01/2011 7:18:44 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: cripplecreek
The international physics community is on record that not only does this not work, it could never work. Moreover, it especially cannot work in the manner in which these guys claim.

The more interesting question is nothing about this flimflammery of cold-fusionism, but rather why people, and Americans in particular, are so eager to be taken in by charlattans. I really want to know. Is American self-esteem so low that we feel flattered to become the marks of these montebanks? Given the hopelessness of our policital and economic mess, I could understand that.

12 posted on 08/01/2011 7:20:02 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Liberty1970
In recent weeks we've been hearing about how Defkalion is asking for $40 million euros for exclusive manufacturing rights in each country from franchise purchasers.

An advantage of such a scheme is that if the E-cat doesn't work, it is not clear that the purchasers have been defrauded. They would still have exclusive manufacturing rights. The rights would simply be for a device that doesn't work. It would all depend on how the contract were worded. An important detail would be what court had jurisdiction and who the enforcing authority would be.

You only have to look at software contracts to see that it is easy to write a contract which completely protects the seller and leaves the buyer with no effective recourse.

13 posted on 08/01/2011 7:20:31 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: Liberty1970
If an independent tester could have one of the devices to set up and test in public that might help convince investors. That would be a test that was completely under control of someone other than the inventor or his “cheerleading squad”.

It hardly will do for Rossi to point to a black box and say there's eleven different herbs and spices in there doing things no one can really understand or explain. For forty million bucks I'd want to not only look at the horse's mouth but use a proctoscope on him.

Rossi or anyone else could watch the tests but without interference.

David Copperfield, the illusionist, could fool Nobel winners as easily as he does the rest of us.

14 posted on 08/01/2011 7:25:35 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: AndyJackson
The international physics community is on record that not only does this not work, it could never work. Moreover, it especially cannot work in the manner in which these guys claim. The more interesting question is nothing about this flimflammery of cold-fusionism, but rather why people, and Americans in particular, are so eager to be taken in by charlattans. I really want to know. Is American self-esteem so low that we feel flattered to become the marks of these montebanks? Given the hopelessness of our policital and economic mess, I could understand that.

My best guess is that the E-cat is a scam. However argueing that there is a "consensus" that something cannot work is rather risky.

It reminds me of Al Gore and the anthropogenic global warming scandal. Eminent scientists "proved" that heavier than air aircraft were impossible, that space flight was impossible, that nuclear reactions were not usable for any practical purpose.

Americans have had lots of experience where "experts" who say things are impossible are proved wrong.

15 posted on 08/01/2011 7:27:33 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: AndyJackson

When the scam falls apart there will be conspiracy theories about governments and oil companies keeping this great wonder from the people.


16 posted on 08/01/2011 7:32:52 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: mad_as_he$$

Thanks for the positive feedback.


17 posted on 08/01/2011 7:44:23 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (For by grace are you saved through faith.)
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To: AndyJackson
I saw your comment the other day that the E-cat violated 'every principle of physics' (or something to that effect). I've corresponded with several Ph.D. physicists who have also been fairly dismissive of it. But then on the flip side there are a number of physicists who do support it to at least some degree, such as Drs. Piantelli, Levi, Focardi, Stremmenos, Essen, Kullander and Josephson. Not to mention the rest of the LENR community.

I haven't heard that the E-cat violates the law of gravity, for example, so your comment struck me as over-the-top. Granted it doesn't fit with existing orthodox theories, but science would never advance if it became fossilized and results and theories challenging existing models were never allowed to be considered. So I have to be more open-minded than that.

18 posted on 08/01/2011 7:49:18 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (For by grace are you saved through faith.)
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To: marktwain
An advantage of such a scheme is that if the E-cat doesn't work, it is not clear that the purchasers have been defrauded.

That's a very, very interesting and insightful observation. Hmmm...

19 posted on 08/01/2011 7:50:25 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (For by grace are you saved through faith.)
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To: Liberty1970

Think of it as a car. No, that is not the way to sell franchises because of the varying population counts. Put one worldwide price on the unit and shove it out the door. The wealthiest people will be the first to buy, then five years later when it needs to be refueled your second hand market will appear. The wealthiest people will then be buying the newer model and selling their old model.

Why would I give you $10M to sell to a country that only has 5M people in it when I can give you the same 5M to sell in a country that has 500M?

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/


20 posted on 08/01/2011 7:54:59 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are..)
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To: Liberty1970
I largely agree, but what I'm hoping to avoid is something where Defkalion offers "X, Y and Z" as evidence, and skeptics say "But what we really wanted to see is A, B and C!" for proof. If there is a sort of shared concensus amongst the various parties of what steps need to be taken then this can be avoided.

It's not that hard.

Allow an independent auditor to supervise the construction steps to make sure there are no hidden power lines. When I see that only the like-minded are invited as witnesses and there is no means to audit how the device was constructed, that sets of alarm bells. It's just too similar to the global warming bad science.

21 posted on 08/01/2011 7:57:24 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: Liberty1970
"In recent weeks we've been hearing about how Defkalion is asking for $40 million euros for exclusive manufacturing rights in each country from franchise purchasers. This strikes me as bizarre. Why should I pay as much to supply Luxembourg or Albania as someone else pays for the U.S. or Japan?"

I'm sure that each of these franchises also contains a royalty/fee per unit sold in addition to the $40MM.

22 posted on 08/01/2011 7:59:54 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Liberty1970

Correction

You can’t put one worldwide price on the unit and shove it out the door.


23 posted on 08/01/2011 8:02:32 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are..)
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To: Red Badger
You are probably right over the target. The manipulation of the weak force shouldn't be all that terribly more complex than the manipulation of the electro-weak force, or the electro-magnetic force, or "juice" as we call it out in the garage.

Eventually some guy finds the switch and turns it on.

24 posted on 08/01/2011 8:03:26 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Liberty1970
Why would I give you $10M to sell to a country that only has 5M people in it when I can give you the same 5M to sell in a country that has 500M?

Why would I give you $10M to sell to a country that only has 5M people in it when I can give you the same $10M to sell in a country that has 500M?

25 posted on 08/01/2011 8:05:56 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are..)
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To: Liberty1970
there are a number of physicists who do support it to at least some degree

What they cannot do is tell you how it works. They merely invoke a holiday from long established laws of physics, but with no evidence (direct experimental demonstration) that such laws can be violated. I am not talking about things that are obscure or present subjects of controversy, but rather long established things, like conservation of energy or quantum uncertainty principles. [there are some principlest that have never been violated, in popular parlance such as the no free lunch principle or the can't push on a rope principle, or the whole = the sum of the parts princple, and these guys violate all of them]. And let me talk just briefly about the conservation of energy issue. If these guys produced the energy they claim they would have produced, there would be dead physicists and demolished laboratories all over the place. Governments would have shut these guys down for a long list of safety violations. There is nothing to see because there is nothing to see.

So, no it is not an over the top comment. It is a comment that these guys have a lot to demonstrate, everyting we know is against them, and they need either to put up or shut up. Instead they resort to a tediously long lists of special pleading about how it is different this time. It isn't, never has been, and I will assert here and now, never will be. There is nothing in the physics of how these things claim to operate that we have not understood long long ago. They are not invoking any new, as yet unknown physics. They are claiming they can take exception to well established principles, and that is simply BS, BS being persued with a lot of public and private money.

26 posted on 08/01/2011 8:06:20 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: cripplecreek
So far all its produced are promises and hype.

They should rename it the O-Cat

27 posted on 08/01/2011 8:07:01 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Rose, there's a Messerschmitt in the kitchen. Clean it up, will ya?)
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To: cripplecreek

Why would NASA be in consultations with a scam artist?


28 posted on 08/01/2011 8:07:31 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are..)
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To: Red Badger
My guess is that the ‘secrecy’ is because the ‘technology’ is so simple and could be built in anybodies’ garage with off-the-shelf- parts.

You rely upon trade secrets when you are confident that you can protect your franchise by keeping it secret. If anyone can do it, then your only recourse is to patent it. The way you patent something is that you disclose it, which is what patent means. So, this argument in defense of their secretiveness is total BS.

29 posted on 08/01/2011 8:08:59 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Liberty1970

Where is the benefit TO Rossi to explain in detail and permit all these examinations. Either it works as he says or it doesn’t. We’ll all find out in October.


30 posted on 08/01/2011 8:11:11 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are..)
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To: B4Ranch

The same NASA that feeds us the global warming scam?


31 posted on 08/01/2011 8:14:10 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: marktwain

How long do you think he would still be breathing unassisted if he accepted 40M from someone for a scam? Think he would make it for an entire week?


32 posted on 08/01/2011 8:15:02 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are..)
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To: muawiyah
The manipulation of the weak force shouldn't be all that terribly more complex than the manipulation of the electro-weak force, or the electro-magnetic force

You should join Hagelstein, Miley, Storms and Sinha. Maybe you could co-publish this with one of them. There are just two minor issues. One, fusion is a strong-force (nuclear binding) phenomenon, not a weak-force phenomenon. Two, we will be able to manipulate the weak force as soon as we have a reliable source of Higgs bosons, if they exist. The LHC is a mult-billion dollar accelerator looking for Higgs as we speak. In the quadrillions of particles they have produced, there is some tantalizing evidence that they might have detected it, or might not have. But if I were you, I would try to publish this theory before someone else does.

33 posted on 08/01/2011 8:15:25 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Liberty1970

For a certainty no money will be returned to investors if the whole thing goes belly up.


34 posted on 08/01/2011 8:21:36 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: AndyJackson
You didn't read Yeong E. Kim's proposed explanation of LENR did you.

I think he's going to get the awards and cudos for all of it.

http://www.physics.purdue.edu/people/faculty/yekim/BECNF-Ni-Hydrogen.pdf

35 posted on 08/01/2011 8:27:45 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: cripplecreek

I don’t think they would be bragging about it if they thought there was a chance of being scammed.


36 posted on 08/01/2011 8:39:49 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are..)
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To: muawiyah
I did. It is BS. There are many errors, but a fundamental one is starting with a quasi-particle (many body) theory (which is applicable only over length scales involving hundreds of thousands of lattice units, and then trying to extrapolate to single particle nuclear range phenomenon.

The second problem, I am sure you picked up on, is that it has nothing to do with your invocation of the ability to manipulate weak interactions, and for that theory I believe you are quite on your own and free to publish without having to worry overly much about priority.

37 posted on 08/01/2011 8:49:05 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson

Patents mean nothing these days. The Chinese do not care about patents. Patent infringement cases can take decades to work thru the courts of just one country, much less dozens. The minute the design is published the stealing begins..................


38 posted on 08/01/2011 8:50:55 AM PDT by Red Badger ("Treason doth never prosper.... What's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.")
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To: B4Ranch

“Why would NASA be in consultations with a scam artist?”

First response. They meet with the president don’t they.

Second response. Attributing any validity to one entity based on an unclear association with another entitiy is a logic error.

Third response, NASA will talk to about anybody, they were even doing some antigravity research based on some iffy work by a lone scientist a decade or so ago.

Fourth response, you are reaching too hard, if you have to list reasons that you aren’t being scammed at some level you feel you might be being scammed. Listen to the force Luke.


39 posted on 08/01/2011 8:51:17 AM PDT by dangerdoc (see post #6)
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To: count-your-change

>>For a certainty no money will be returned to investors if the whole thing goes belly up.<<

What cute, clean, polished, child like world do you live in?

How long do you think he would still be breathing unassisted if he accepted 40M from someone for a scam? Think he would make it for an entire week?

Think of a jail where you can get a shiv stuck in your guts for stealing a cigarette. Think of kids in school where you will get the snot beat out of you for winking at the wrong girl. Think of the Mexican border where if you don’t pay up weekly as demanded, the cartel will kill everyone in the building then walk across the street and sit down for dinner.

Do you think multimillionaires are willing to be known at the country club as fools who would drop $40M with no physical retribution? If you do, you have no idea what the real world is all about. Cash the check and deliver as promised or you’ll pay with pieces of your head, sometimes it can be your entire head.


40 posted on 08/01/2011 8:56:33 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are..)
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To: dangerdoc

Ten years ago, I tried to get into the game. He turned me down. I don’t believe the man is a liar. I do think it is comical that all these assistant professors believe that he owes them a detailed explanation though.


41 posted on 08/01/2011 9:00:09 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are..)
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To: B4Ranch

“Ten years ago, I tried to get into the game. He turned me down. I don’t believe the man is a liar. “

A fool and his money...
A sucker is born every...


42 posted on 08/01/2011 9:05:18 AM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: Liberty1970

You sure are pumping this crap day in and day out, and when there is no press release you make your own. Get a life, wait for real news, and stop being this guy’s sychophant.


43 posted on 08/01/2011 9:07:22 AM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: AndyJackson
Then the third problem is this BS

We note a very important fact that both Rb and R do not depend on the Gamow factor in contrast to the conventional theory for nuclei fusion in free space. This is consistent with the conjecture noted by Dirac [16] and used by Bogolubov [21] that boson creation and annihilation operators can be treated simply as numbers when the ground state occupation number is large. This implies that for large N each charged boson behaves as an independent particle in a common average background potential and the Coulomb interaction between two charged bosons is suppressed. Quoting Kim et. al. 2003

This is a neat bit of circular reasoning. He assumes that the "bosons" are non-interacting and then concludes that their is no coulomb interaction between them, thus suppressing the Gamov factor in the fusion cross-section, which factor is the whole reason why cold-fusion cannot work. IOW this paper simply assumes away the coulomb barrier that makes cold-fusion impossible.

But of course you realized all of that when you read these papers, leading you to propose your weak-interaction manipulation method instead.

44 posted on 08/01/2011 9:11:17 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Red Badger
Patents mean nothing these days

Well then the poor guy is screwed because relying on trade secrecy for something that is easily discoverable once you have the hardware is no protection at all. At least with a patent you can protect some of your rights in the Western world.

45 posted on 08/01/2011 9:13:37 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: CodeToad

It is sounding more and more like a Madoff scheme. Has he been paying dividends to the early investors?


46 posted on 08/01/2011 9:14:54 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: dangerdoc
lone

Spelling error. It should read "loon."

47 posted on 08/01/2011 9:16:16 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson

Sounds like this guy is going whole hog. He wants the big investors, the whales, not some small time sub-billion guys.


48 posted on 08/01/2011 9:17:59 AM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: Liberty1970
Given the scope of this whole story and the hundreds of millions of dollars already on the table, it would be a simple thing to go to the trouble of pumping 1 MW of electricity into the array of 330 E-Cats with hidden power lines and convert it to thermal energy using resistance heaters embedded in the false E-Cat devices. (I don't think batteries or other on-board power generation would be sufficient for this stage of the scam, if scam it is.)

Wouldn't it be easy to verify it was a fake by the amount of power it was drawing off the grid?

49 posted on 08/01/2011 9:18:45 AM PDT by GOPJ (http://www.alt-market.com/articles/198-the-essential-rules-of-tyranny)
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50 posted on 08/01/2011 9:19:19 AM PDT by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list.)
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