Skip to comments.Beware the Unveiling of the Rossi E-Cat 1 MW Reactor in October
Posted on 08/01/2011 7:01:31 AM PDT by Liberty1970
Beware the Unveiling of the 1 MW Reactor in October
For months those of us watching the E-Cat story unfold have been eagerly looking forward to the last week in October and the unveiling of the first 1 megawatt thermal reactor at Defkalion's factory in Greece. Andrea Rossi has steadfastly refused to provide more public evidence for the reality of the E-cat, pointing instead to the 1 MW reactor operation as the proof everyone should be waiting for.
Skeptics and believers alike have cited this date as well, indicating that we will all know by the end of October whether the world has changed and the Energy Catalyzer is for real.
Or will we?
Rossi, in recent communications, has indicated that some 'elite' American scientists will be at the unveiling of the 1 MW reactor, as well as physicists Dr. Brian Josephson (Nobel laureate), Drs. Kullander and Essen of Sweden, and Dr. Levi. Once concern I have here is that all those named have previously given public statements of support for the E-cat. Not that I expect Rossi to invite his enemies or competitors, but it would be nice to know there are some scientists coming who are not part of Rossi's cheerleading squad, as it were.
Moreover, this event simply cannot be a repeat of the frustrating public demonstrations given earlier this year, which provide evidence but not proof of the operation of the E-Cat. I've frequently heard people comment that you 'can't fake a 1 MW reactor' as if that scale of operation simply can't be performed with hidden, mundane, power generation.
Hogwash. Given the scope of this whole story and the hundreds of millions of dollars already on the table, it would be a simple thing to go to the trouble of pumping 1 MW of electricity into the array of 330 E-Cats with hidden power lines and convert it to thermal energy using resistance heaters embedded in the false E-Cat devices. (I don't think batteries or other on-board power generation would be sufficient for this stage of the scam, if scam it is.)
In recent weeks we've been hearing about how Defkalion is asking for $40 million euros for exclusive manufacturing rights in each country from franchise purchasers. This strikes me as bizarre. Why should I pay as much to supply Luxembourg or Albania as someone else pays for the U.S. or Japan? Why not auction off the franchises to the highest bidder once proof has been established? (That's probably a naive way to go about it too, but strikes me as better than one flat price as I've currently heard.)
The $40 million price tag raises a red flag for me. I hope I'm wrong, but I wonder how many people are willing to take the risk and hand over that kind of money now, or will jump to do so as soon as they see the 1 MW reactor running in October. If this is a scam, that's where the big money is.
So that's my fear - that the 1 MW reactor will turn out to be a fake, but one that pulls in hundreds of millions of euros in the first few weeks before things start to really fall apart as promised shipments of E-cats to independent sources (outside of Rossi's control at last) fail to materialize. My message to Rossi and the folks at Defkalion is: you've still got more than two months. Use it to plan out how you intend to PROVE to us, your customer base and the world at large, that the E-cat is real.
Don't have the E-cat array hidden or embedded in conrete - have it up in as accessible a configuration as possible. Every hose, every power line, anything that could carry a wire should be accessible for inspection and independent metering as applicable. Let the scientists (including some heretofore uncommitted ones) and journals have full access to the setup (as much as safety allows). Have some single E-cats also set up, operational and available for inspection and metering. Let the visitors bring their own equipment for inspection and metering. I understand you need to keep some trade secrets, but find ways to let independent researchers prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the E-cat is doing what you say it is doing, without any hidden power sources.
Engage the honest skeptics now to understand what we'd like to see, what we need to see, to really satisfy everyone. Please.
My gut feeling is that if this were a truly viable and real system, they wouldn't need suggestions on how to verify it. Good science operates in the open.
Also, does anyone have a source for the report that Defkalion is selling franchises? All I can find right now are blogs and discussion boards mentioning it, nothing official. I hope I'm not muddling any facts.
The lack of openness is starting to get to me.
So far all its produced are promises and hype.
My guess is that the ‘secrecy’ is because the ‘technology’ is so simple and could be built in anybodies’ garage with off-the-shelf- parts. The Chinese are going to steal it, that’s a given. The rest of the world will makes them on their own using whatever scheme they can to copy it. The Rossi Group wants to make as much money as they possibly can as fast as they can before the design gets viral on the internet and every redneck on earth has one in their back yard.................
Why not just wait until the thing is unveiled? It will either “fly” or it will not. What is 40 million Euros to a person with the money to spend? I know I know, it is their own money, and if they fork it over without absolutely KNOWING what they are buying, it is their problem.
Of course, once an E-cat finally ships to a private customer none of this will be necessary. The problem is with any financial risks being born until that point.
There have been lots of scams where even ordinary goods were promised for upfront money, only to have the schemers abscond with the funds before anything was delivered.
I’ve been following this story from a strictly non-scientific prospective (I’m an Accountant, and only took 1 college level course in general chemistry). All I can say is if this guy is a con-artist he must be a dang good one to have to have fooled governments, companies, and many in the scientific establishment and to what end? He must surely know that if this turns out be a fraud, he’s going to be run out of town on a rail and probably end up in the big house for fraud if he accepts all this money on something he knows does not work.
The more interesting question is nothing about this flimflammery of cold-fusionism, but rather why people, and Americans in particular, are so eager to be taken in by charlattans. I really want to know. Is American self-esteem so low that we feel flattered to become the marks of these montebanks? Given the hopelessness of our policital and economic mess, I could understand that.
An advantage of such a scheme is that if the E-cat doesn't work, it is not clear that the purchasers have been defrauded. They would still have exclusive manufacturing rights. The rights would simply be for a device that doesn't work. It would all depend on how the contract were worded. An important detail would be what court had jurisdiction and who the enforcing authority would be.
You only have to look at software contracts to see that it is easy to write a contract which completely protects the seller and leaves the buyer with no effective recourse.
It hardly will do for Rossi to point to a black box and say there's eleven different herbs and spices in there doing things no one can really understand or explain. For forty million bucks I'd want to not only look at the horse's mouth but use a proctoscope on him.
Rossi or anyone else could watch the tests but without interference.
David Copperfield, the illusionist, could fool Nobel winners as easily as he does the rest of us.
My best guess is that the E-cat is a scam. However argueing that there is a "consensus" that something cannot work is rather risky.
It reminds me of Al Gore and the anthropogenic global warming scandal. Eminent scientists "proved" that heavier than air aircraft were impossible, that space flight was impossible, that nuclear reactions were not usable for any practical purpose.
Americans have had lots of experience where "experts" who say things are impossible are proved wrong.
When the scam falls apart there will be conspiracy theories about governments and oil companies keeping this great wonder from the people.
Thanks for the positive feedback.
I haven't heard that the E-cat violates the law of gravity, for example, so your comment struck me as over-the-top. Granted it doesn't fit with existing orthodox theories, but science would never advance if it became fossilized and results and theories challenging existing models were never allowed to be considered. So I have to be more open-minded than that.
That's a very, very interesting and insightful observation. Hmmm...
Think of it as a car. No, that is not the way to sell franchises because of the varying population counts. Put one worldwide price on the unit and shove it out the door. The wealthiest people will be the first to buy, then five years later when it needs to be refueled your second hand market will appear. The wealthiest people will then be buying the newer model and selling their old model.
Why would I give you $10M to sell to a country that only has 5M people in it when I can give you the same 5M to sell in a country that has 500M?
It's not that hard.
Allow an independent auditor to supervise the construction steps to make sure there are no hidden power lines. When I see that only the like-minded are invited as witnesses and there is no means to audit how the device was constructed, that sets of alarm bells. It's just too similar to the global warming bad science.
I'm sure that each of these franchises also contains a royalty/fee per unit sold in addition to the $40MM.
You can’t put one worldwide price on the unit and shove it out the door.
Eventually some guy finds the switch and turns it on.
Why would I give you $10M to sell to a country that only has 5M people in it when I can give you the same $10M to sell in a country that has 500M?
What they cannot do is tell you how it works. They merely invoke a holiday from long established laws of physics, but with no evidence (direct experimental demonstration) that such laws can be violated. I am not talking about things that are obscure or present subjects of controversy, but rather long established things, like conservation of energy or quantum uncertainty principles. [there are some principlest that have never been violated, in popular parlance such as the no free lunch principle or the can't push on a rope principle, or the whole = the sum of the parts princple, and these guys violate all of them]. And let me talk just briefly about the conservation of energy issue. If these guys produced the energy they claim they would have produced, there would be dead physicists and demolished laboratories all over the place. Governments would have shut these guys down for a long list of safety violations. There is nothing to see because there is nothing to see.
So, no it is not an over the top comment. It is a comment that these guys have a lot to demonstrate, everyting we know is against them, and they need either to put up or shut up. Instead they resort to a tediously long lists of special pleading about how it is different this time. It isn't, never has been, and I will assert here and now, never will be. There is nothing in the physics of how these things claim to operate that we have not understood long long ago. They are not invoking any new, as yet unknown physics. They are claiming they can take exception to well established principles, and that is simply BS, BS being persued with a lot of public and private money.
They should rename it the O-Cat
Why would NASA be in consultations with a scam artist?
You rely upon trade secrets when you are confident that you can protect your franchise by keeping it secret. If anyone can do it, then your only recourse is to patent it. The way you patent something is that you disclose it, which is what patent means. So, this argument in defense of their secretiveness is total BS.
Where is the benefit TO Rossi to explain in detail and permit all these examinations. Either it works as he says or it doesn’t. We’ll all find out in October.
The same NASA that feeds us the global warming scam?
How long do you think he would still be breathing unassisted if he accepted 40M from someone for a scam? Think he would make it for an entire week?
You should join Hagelstein, Miley, Storms and Sinha. Maybe you could co-publish this with one of them. There are just two minor issues. One, fusion is a strong-force (nuclear binding) phenomenon, not a weak-force phenomenon. Two, we will be able to manipulate the weak force as soon as we have a reliable source of Higgs bosons, if they exist. The LHC is a mult-billion dollar accelerator looking for Higgs as we speak. In the quadrillions of particles they have produced, there is some tantalizing evidence that they might have detected it, or might not have. But if I were you, I would try to publish this theory before someone else does.
For a certainty no money will be returned to investors if the whole thing goes belly up.
I think he's going to get the awards and cudos for all of it.
I don’t think they would be bragging about it if they thought there was a chance of being scammed.
The second problem, I am sure you picked up on, is that it has nothing to do with your invocation of the ability to manipulate weak interactions, and for that theory I believe you are quite on your own and free to publish without having to worry overly much about priority.
Patents mean nothing these days. The Chinese do not care about patents. Patent infringement cases can take decades to work thru the courts of just one country, much less dozens. The minute the design is published the stealing begins..................
“Why would NASA be in consultations with a scam artist?”
First response. They meet with the president don’t they.
Second response. Attributing any validity to one entity based on an unclear association with another entitiy is a logic error.
Third response, NASA will talk to about anybody, they were even doing some antigravity research based on some iffy work by a lone scientist a decade or so ago.
Fourth response, you are reaching too hard, if you have to list reasons that you aren’t being scammed at some level you feel you might be being scammed. Listen to the force Luke.
>>For a certainty no money will be returned to investors if the whole thing goes belly up.<<
What cute, clean, polished, child like world do you live in?
How long do you think he would still be breathing unassisted if he accepted 40M from someone for a scam? Think he would make it for an entire week?
Think of a jail where you can get a shiv stuck in your guts for stealing a cigarette. Think of kids in school where you will get the snot beat out of you for winking at the wrong girl. Think of the Mexican border where if you don’t pay up weekly as demanded, the cartel will kill everyone in the building then walk across the street and sit down for dinner.
Do you think multimillionaires are willing to be known at the country club as fools who would drop $40M with no physical retribution? If you do, you have no idea what the real world is all about. Cash the check and deliver as promised or you’ll pay with pieces of your head, sometimes it can be your entire head.
Ten years ago, I tried to get into the game. He turned me down. I don’t believe the man is a liar. I do think it is comical that all these assistant professors believe that he owes them a detailed explanation though.
“Ten years ago, I tried to get into the game. He turned me down. I dont believe the man is a liar. “
A fool and his money...
A sucker is born every...
You sure are pumping this crap day in and day out, and when there is no press release you make your own. Get a life, wait for real news, and stop being this guy’s sychophant.
We note a very important fact that both Rb and R do not depend on the Gamow factor in contrast to the conventional theory for nuclei fusion in free space. This is consistent with the conjecture noted by Dirac  and used by Bogolubov  that boson creation and annihilation operators can be treated simply as numbers when the ground state occupation number is large. This implies that for large N each charged boson behaves as an independent particle in a common average background potential and the Coulomb interaction between two charged bosons is suppressed. Quoting Kim et. al. 2003
This is a neat bit of circular reasoning. He assumes that the "bosons" are non-interacting and then concludes that their is no coulomb interaction between them, thus suppressing the Gamov factor in the fusion cross-section, which factor is the whole reason why cold-fusion cannot work. IOW this paper simply assumes away the coulomb barrier that makes cold-fusion impossible.
But of course you realized all of that when you read these papers, leading you to propose your weak-interaction manipulation method instead.
Well then the poor guy is screwed because relying on trade secrecy for something that is easily discoverable once you have the hardware is no protection at all. At least with a patent you can protect some of your rights in the Western world.
It is sounding more and more like a Madoff scheme. Has he been paying dividends to the early investors?
Spelling error. It should read "loon."
Sounds like this guy is going whole hog. He wants the big investors, the whales, not some small time sub-billion guys.
Wouldn't it be easy to verify it was a fake by the amount of power it was drawing off the grid?