Posted on 08/01/2011 7:01:31 AM PDT by Liberty1970
Beware the Unveiling of the 1 MW Reactor in October
For months those of us watching the E-Cat story unfold have been eagerly looking forward to the last week in October and the unveiling of the first 1 megawatt thermal reactor at Defkalion's factory in Greece. Andrea Rossi has steadfastly refused to provide more public evidence for the reality of the E-cat, pointing instead to the 1 MW reactor operation as the proof everyone should be waiting for.
Skeptics and believers alike have cited this date as well, indicating that we will all know by the end of October whether the world has changed and the Energy Catalyzer is for real.
Or will we?
Rossi, in recent communications, has indicated that some 'elite' American scientists will be at the unveiling of the 1 MW reactor, as well as physicists Dr. Brian Josephson (Nobel laureate), Drs. Kullander and Essen of Sweden, and Dr. Levi. Once concern I have here is that all those named have previously given public statements of support for the E-cat. Not that I expect Rossi to invite his enemies or competitors, but it would be nice to know there are some scientists coming who are not part of Rossi's cheerleading squad, as it were.
Moreover, this event simply cannot be a repeat of the frustrating public demonstrations given earlier this year, which provide evidence but not proof of the operation of the E-Cat. I've frequently heard people comment that you 'can't fake a 1 MW reactor' as if that scale of operation simply can't be performed with hidden, mundane, power generation.
Hogwash. Given the scope of this whole story and the hundreds of millions of dollars already on the table, it would be a simple thing to go to the trouble of pumping 1 MW of electricity into the array of 330 E-Cats with hidden power lines and convert it to thermal energy using resistance heaters embedded in the false E-Cat devices. (I don't think batteries or other on-board power generation would be sufficient for this stage of the scam, if scam it is.)
In recent weeks we've been hearing about how Defkalion is asking for $40 million euros for exclusive manufacturing rights in each country from franchise purchasers. This strikes me as bizarre. Why should I pay as much to supply Luxembourg or Albania as someone else pays for the U.S. or Japan? Why not auction off the franchises to the highest bidder once proof has been established? (That's probably a naive way to go about it too, but strikes me as better than one flat price as I've currently heard.)
The $40 million price tag raises a red flag for me. I hope I'm wrong, but I wonder how many people are willing to take the risk and hand over that kind of money now, or will jump to do so as soon as they see the 1 MW reactor running in October. If this is a scam, that's where the big money is.
So that's my fear - that the 1 MW reactor will turn out to be a fake, but one that pulls in hundreds of millions of euros in the first few weeks before things start to really fall apart as promised shipments of E-cats to independent sources (outside of Rossi's control at last) fail to materialize. My message to Rossi and the folks at Defkalion is: you've still got more than two months. Use it to plan out how you intend to PROVE to us, your customer base and the world at large, that the E-cat is real.
Don't have the E-cat array hidden or embedded in conrete - have it up in as accessible a configuration as possible. Every hose, every power line, anything that could carry a wire should be accessible for inspection and independent metering as applicable. Let the scientists (including some heretofore uncommitted ones) and journals have full access to the setup (as much as safety allows). Have some single E-cats also set up, operational and available for inspection and metering. Let the visitors bring their own equipment for inspection and metering. I understand you need to keep some trade secrets, but find ways to let independent researchers prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the E-cat is doing what you say it is doing, without any hidden power sources.
Engage the honest skeptics now to understand what we'd like to see, what we need to see, to really satisfy everyone. Please.
Obviously said by someone who has never worked in a research lab on something the PI is hoping to score big on.
You both make valid points. Openness is a good ideal to strive for and is necessary for healthy science, but in the real world, particularly where there are legitimate financial considerations for secrecy, the 'good science' aspect becomes a lower priority.
The next hurdles: the University of Bologna’s tests on the E-Cat and the Greek authorities’ tests on Defkalion Green Technologies’ Hyperion products. If Mr. Rossi’s device makes it through these tests successfully it appears the way will be open for the final test: customer opinion.
http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/mr-rossi-calculates-the-e-cats-energy/
My guess is that the ‘secrecy’ is because the ‘technology’ is so simple and could be built in anybodies’ garage with off-the-shelf- parts.
How about this?
What if it turns out that anyone CAN make one in his garage once everyone knows how.
I may be wrong, but I thought that anyone could duplicate a patented item for his own use. He just couldn’t sell it, or make money on it.
If this is so, and everyone starts making them themselves from plans on the Internet, and even making them for friends and family, how does a patent protect Rossi?
Well, first, if it can be made from common parts then trade secrets certainly won't protect it. For something to be protected as a trade secret it has to be a secret no one can discover on their own and the only way to get it is to steal it (the secret sauce). Second you cannot steal a patent period. Now if you make one for your own use and it is of no value the other side has no damages and so there is not much to sue over. But, if you make one yourself, and stop using power from the utility company then you just stole several thousand dollars per year worth of IP and someone does have real damages - real value that you stole from them.
” all paid for with taxpayers dollars. Consequently, you have no value for a dollar. That’s your problem, not mine.”
Sorry, there, sweetheart, but you made a stupid assumption that the money I was talking about was taxpayer money. This is all private money; capital money, paid for through profits of a private corporation. Things like product development cost money. Your $200k doesn’t pay the salaries, benefits, and captial costs of just two engineers. You act like you were the big whale, the Angel Investor, going to rock his world. That $200 grand isn’t even a line item correction in an R&D checkbook. So this whole argument about what his turning you down means as far as accepting private investment isn’t even worth discussing as your $200k wasn’t worth discussing. $200k, lol!
“And the ‘scientific community’ apparently took the bait”
No, that is not what happened. The scientific community is tired of these snakeoil salesmen scamming people in the name of science and that is what is upsetting them.
The scientific community lives on grants and institutional stipends. They are all eternally jealous of the other guys who get more stuff faster.
So, he makes mistakes? He's got a team of young whipper snappers there who could find them all ~ 200 papers "read"!
Go ahead; challenge him.
Does that make any kind of sense?
***It might make sense if you look at it from Rossi’s perspective. B4Ranch might be able to shed some light on this as well.
Let’s say he really knows that this stuff works. He’ll be selling franchises/distributorships/whatever for the rest of his life. But for the next 2 months the only folks interested are those who are LENR supporters. After October, the price of such franchises is going to skyrocket due to huge demand. This is the chance for LENR supporters to get in at a low price.
The Coca Cola formula has been successfully hidden for many years through the simple expedient of putting it into the hands of a trusted contractor ~ unbeknownst to the Board of the Directors or management.
. But if I were you, I would try to publish this theory before someone else does.
***And if I were you, I would try to publish your stuff to make a name for yourself, seein’ as how you got a PhD & all. But instead you hide behind an anonymous login while you engage multiple times in freshman level logical fallacies.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2756365/posts
an incredible amount of public money has gone into cold fusion
***Not nearly as much as for trying to control hot fusion, like Tokomak reactors. If one were to look at the number of MJoules produced/$dollar, LENR would tower over hot fusion.
This may take a while. My understanding is UofBologna and Uppsala.
Fact is, Focardi is a professor and he’s been looking at this thing for years.
Rossi brings E-Cat to Stockholm Royal Institute of Technology
http://energycatalyzer.blogspot.com/2011/04/rossi-brings-e-cat-to-stockholm-royal.html
As earlier mentioned, Andrea Rossi has shown little interest to reach validation from the established scientific community, and repeated his mantra “The market is the only judge we need. If the E-Cat works, customers will pay us, if not, they will not pay us”.
However; today he explained in his BLOG that he will bring the E-Cat to two prominent Swedish Universities, UPPSALA UNIVERSITY and THE ROYAL INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY in Stockholm, as a result of the EARLIER DEMONSTRATION with participation from SVEN KULLANDER and HANNO ESSÈN
Rossi: “We will give to the University of Uppsala and to the University of Stockholm our devices to allow them to use the same devices 24 hours per day, to get data regarding the energy production. We trust them, and we know they are really neutral, without binds with competitors of any kind. I personally know them and I have in them total trust.”
(”them” refers to Sven and Hanno.)
It's kind of like the debate between using Adult Stem Cells and Embryonic Stem Cells. The ESCs get all the public money (to buy the researchers nice new offices and laboratories). The ASC researchers keep busy healing disease.
I have my doubts about Hot Fusion ever working in a controlled environment.
I may be wrong, but I thought that anyone could duplicate a patented item for his own use. He just couldn’t sell it, or make money on it. If this is so, and everyone starts making them themselves from plans on the Internet, and even making them for friends and family, how does a patent protect Rossi?
Are you saying if I build my own E-Cat and stop buying electricity from the power company, I owe THEM several thousand dollars worth of Intellectual Property fees.
How exactly?
And how is building your own E-Cat any different from putting in your own windmill or solar power system and going off the grid?
Hi B4...
I mean you no disrespect or offense.
I’ve seen you around the boards, you’re a good guy, I have nothing but appreciation for the opinions you offer and the way you put them forth.
I would say this about your being turned down as an invester: Remember that Bernie Madoff wouldn’t have taken your $200K either, nor would he have taken mine.
I don’t know about this Rossi cat, but Madoff was looking for bigger fish, better-known names, flashier headlines. He was exclusive, he was discerning, the whole A-list wanted in.
Worked out great for him. Made everybody tons of money. Until it didn’t.
I got no interest here. As far as I’m concerned I hope you’re right. But it sure feels wrong. Take care!
Rossi just needs to invite guys like Jed Rothwell, who is smart enough to bring his own instruments. Krivit wasn’t.
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-
Re: [Vo]:Fw: New Energy Times #37 and Rossi Report #3
Jed Rothwell
Mon, 01 Aug 2011 12:30:44 -0700
Daniel Rocha wrote:
Oh, I see, only about Krivit’s test. But I thought you’d like to go visit Rossi even before that test.
Let me explain, briefly. Rossi invited me for a demonstration. We discussed what it would consist of. I suggested he use a shorter hose and a bucket to sparge the steam. I made a number of other suggestions and I said I would bring my own instruments to confirm the measurements. He said that would not be acceptable; he would only do the kind of demonstration he showed to Lewan, using his own instruments. I concluded there is no point to seeing that. It is inconclusive. It proves nothing. I am not going to spend airfare and time to see a mere impressionistic proof-of-principle demonstration. So I said “no thank you” and we called off the trip, with no hard feelings on either side. I fully agree that Rossi is under no obligation to do the kinds of testing that would satisfy me. However, I advised him that it would be a good idea and it would benefit him as well as the public. I still think it would. He disagrees.
At about that same time, Rossi was also taking to Krivit. I had no knowledge of this. I have no idea what he told Krivit beforehand, or what Krivit expected to see. Rossi ended up showing him what he described to me. If Rossi did explain to Krivit beforehand what he was going to do, then Krivit and his friends might have written these “Rossi #3” reports without going anywhere. I could have written the reports for them. I can summarize them in a three points:
1. These results are inconclusive.
2. It is not known whether Rossi put the reservoir on a weight scale in this demonstration, or if he did, whether Krivit observed this and wrote down the weight before and after. If this was not done then these results are so inconclusive they are meaningless.
3. It appears these instruments are owned by Rossi. You cannot do a valid verification of a claim with only the claimant’s own instruments. That’s absurd.
Expanding on #3, you have to use your own to confirm that the claimant’s instruments are working right. Getting on an airplane to go see something like this, and not packing your own instruments is a stupid, pointless waste of time. I have no idea whether Krivit brought his own instruments, or if he was allowed to use them, but if he did not he is a fool.
When I was preparing to visit the Patterson demonstration at Disneyland, we discussed the matter beforehand. They agreed to let me bring my own instruments. I would not have gone otherwise. When I arrived, they changed their minds. Reding said “you can look but no touching and no measuring with your own instruments.” I said, “in that case I will leave this hotel now without seeing anything, and I will tell everyone that you reneged on your agreement and wasted my airfare and my time.” He thought about it for a while and then said “okay, you can use your instruments after all.” I did, and discovered that in the second test it was not working, so it is a good thing I checked. They fixed that problem.
My instruments were crude. Patterson’s were nothing to write home about either. I do not understand why people go to all the trouble to do these experiments using cheap, low precision instruments. I use low-precision ones such as red-liquid thermometers myself because my only purpose is to confirm the high-precision ones on site. I am not doing the whole experiment. I am just doing a reality check.
Nowadays they have wonderfully precise and cheap power meters, thermocouples and computers so there is no excuse for not bringing your own stuff. I’ll bet the $20 Radio Shack Kill-A-Watt meter is better than a $1,000 model was 15 years ago. You can’t use it in Europe, but you can get something similar.
You do not need to bring your own weight scale, by the way. Just test the one on site with a liter bottle of water.
- Jed
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