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The Lie that Won’t Die: the USS Liberty Attack Slander, Continued
The Times of Israel Blog via RealClearHistory.com ^ | 02/22/2013 | Robert Werdine

Posted on 02/25/2013 4:05:47 PM PST by Kid Shelleen

Last June, I had written a post here commemorating the 45th anniversary of the attack on the USS Liberty. The post, in which I argued (in defiance of every conspiracy theory), that the Israeli attack on the American ship was a mistake, has been giving me considerable heartburn as of late. In the last several days, my e-mail and facebook page have been flooded with the harshest condemnations concerning the article, tarring me as being a “hack,” a “traitor,” and nothing less than a running dog for the “Jewish/Zionist/apartheid” lobby. My article, which scored a modest few dozen Facebook recommendations at the time, has now swelled to over 350 in just the last two days. I wish I could say I was pleased.

(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.timesofisrael.com ...


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: godsgravesglyphs; israel; usnavy; ussliberty
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1 posted on 02/25/2013 4:05:56 PM PST by Kid Shelleen
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To: Kid Shelleen
Like most conspiracy theories, you simply need to apply the test of logic: what possible benefit was there to Israel in attacking an ally's vessel intentionally?

And: if there was a benefit, why would you let the vessel escape and abandon any chance of covering it up?

Under no rational model does the conspiracy theory survive.

What I find most interesting about those who accuse Israel of apartheid is not how little they know about Israel, but how little they know about apartheid.

2 posted on 02/25/2013 4:13:03 PM PST by wideawake
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To: Kid Shelleen

Clear weather, huuuge US flag, attack lasted for a long time, submarine joined the attack, life rafts machine-gunned.

It was another of LBJ’s scams, and Israel was a partner —success hinged on Liberty going down completely, and she didn’t.

We’ve seen similar teachery in Bengazi.

Scam success would have provided premise for massive US intervention in the Middle-East —it worked in the Gulf of Tonkin, right...?


3 posted on 02/25/2013 4:24:32 PM PST by gaijin
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To: Kid Shelleen

Lemme Guess:

Pollard is a huge hero, and he did NOTHING wrong, the USA is nasty for not giving him a medal.

Right?

And anyone who says otherwise is Hitler, or an Arab.

Right?


4 posted on 02/25/2013 4:26:40 PM PST by gaijin
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To: wideawake

A+Bert would have a tizzy if you presented these facts to him. To him, not only was the attack on The Liberty deliberate, but it was the only military campaign that ever happened against America — 9/11 included.


5 posted on 02/25/2013 4:35:55 PM PST by Stepan12
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To: Stepan12

A+Bert! Old school crazy!


6 posted on 02/25/2013 4:40:04 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: gaijin

Your schtick got limp, gaijin...


7 posted on 02/25/2013 4:42:26 PM PST by Hardraade (http://junipersec.wordpress.com (Vendetta))
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To: Kid Shelleen
Surviving Liberty crew members tell their side of the story:

USS Liberty Memorial.

8 posted on 02/25/2013 4:43:24 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Tijeras_Slim

And there was A+Bert telling Jim Robinson (defender against all evil) to go to hell — or was it heaven? Whatever, A+Bert wanted Jim Robinson (defender against all evil) to vacate the planet.


9 posted on 02/25/2013 4:45:25 PM PST by Stepan12
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To: Tijeras_Slim; A+Bert

Hoping he’s lurking!


10 posted on 02/25/2013 4:45:56 PM PST by Rebelbase ( .223, .224, whatever it takes....)
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To: gaijin

I knew that several torpedo boats joined in the attack, but I didn’t know there was a submarine involved. I doubt the whole truth of the attack will ever be told, but there are a number of major questions that have never been satisfactorily answered.


11 posted on 02/25/2013 4:49:45 PM PST by Stonewall Jackson (Molon Labe!)
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To: Kid Shelleen

.


12 posted on 02/25/2013 4:52:54 PM PST by QBFimi (When gunpowder speaks, beasts listen.)
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To: Stonewall Jackson

A Medal of Honor was awarded IN SECRECY to the Captain of the USS Liberty —a clumsy BRIBE to keep him quiet about the huge SCAM he was unwittingly caught up in as a PAWN.

LBJ —the treacherous master of threading the political needle.

The best laid plans, with LBJ as the master Metternich genius, but lo and behold REALITY intervened, with the ship staying AFLOAT, in much the same more recent manner as two SEALS running against orders towards the sound of gunfire.

The biggest red herring is the notion that the pilots (and all involved in the scheme) had to HATE the men aboard the Liberty —military men are used as pawns ALLLLL THE TIME, and ROUTINELY expected to do things they don’t agree with.

In fact there was VERY high discord among the pilots who were ordered to continue the attack, but attack they did.

Are our guys really so different..?

The Bengazi rescuers were ordered to take ANOTHER NINETY MINUTES to divert and change out of their military uniforms before beginning the rescue:

LOOK IT UP.

Politics is dirty, and the attack on the USS Liberty provides no exception.

It was another of LBJ’s megalomaniac, thread-the-needle political scams.


13 posted on 02/25/2013 5:01:41 PM PST by gaijin
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To: Kid Shelleen
As I recall, there was a NYT story at the time which was accurate in all the particulars - I say that because I can still remember the story cut out and pinned to a cork board on the wall of one training room at NSA ... stamped Top Secret (xxxxx) CW.

FWIW

14 posted on 02/25/2013 5:13:20 PM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: DuncanWaring
Thanks for posting that. Here's what that site says the experts say:
"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous " -- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty." -- CIA Director Richard Helms

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship." -- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby

"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable" -- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson

"The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error." -- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek in Flawed Giant, Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 430-31)

"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American." -- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry

That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency -- Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom on 3 March 2003 in an interview for Naval Institute Proceedings

Hard to ignore comments like that.
15 posted on 02/25/2013 5:14:01 PM PST by LibWhacker
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To: Stonewall Jackson

The U.S.S. Amberjack was in the area and watched the attack from the periscope. The skipper at the time was Cmdr. August Hubal.

I served with Cmdr. Hubal prior to his skippering the Amberjack. He was a stand-up guy and I do not believe that he would lie. However, some of his crew do not agree with his comments on the matter.


16 posted on 02/25/2013 5:25:13 PM PST by spel_grammer_an_punct_polise (Learn three chords and you, too, can be a Rock Star!)
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To: wideawake

I note that no one has answered your question about what Israel would gain by intentionally attacking an ally.

A+Bert, RCW2001, etc. - those were some vitriolic threads.


17 posted on 02/25/2013 5:26:57 PM PST by mgstarr ("Some of us drink because we're not poets." Arthur (1981))
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To: LibWhacker
The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error." -- Lyndon Johnson's biographer

Aw, now THAT is rich..! Isn't that just LIKE HIM...? LBJ was freaking IN ON IT...!

And WHY should it be so hard to believe...? Just look at our political present --we have a bisexual Muslim Prez who enthusiastically arms Syrian crypto Al Qaeda and whose CIA nomination during this, "War on Terror" is ALSO a Muslim...!

And the GF of the former SOS was a member of the MB...!

Indeed the attack on the USS Liberty begins to appear tamer and tamer by current standards, wouldn't you say...?

18 posted on 02/25/2013 5:27:33 PM PST by gaijin
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To: mgstarr
Theories I've heard:

Israel did not want the U.S. to know that Israel initiated the conflict with Egypt, but was claiming Israel was attacked first. Israel was appealing to the U.S. for military aid but did not think the U.S. would support them if the conflict was instigated and initiated by Israel.

If the Liberty was sunk and the attack blamed on Egyptians, the U.S. would be more likely to support Israel in the conflict since a U.S. ship had been sunk by the "Egyptians."

Israel was killing civilians and trying to hide this fact by taking out an NSA platform that could reveal those details.

I do know is it is pretty hard to mistake an American vessel.

19 posted on 02/25/2013 5:46:05 PM PST by Repeat Offender (What good are conservative principles if we don't stand by them?)
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To: gaijin

LBJ wasn’t in on the Liberty thing, he was behind the Kennedy Assassination...no, wait a second that was the Mob. No, that’s not right, it was the CIA (ask Oliver Stone).

Hold it, it wasn’t the Mob or the CIA, it was CASTRO! Yeah, that’s it, CASTRO. Wait...that can’t be right. I know, it was actually the ANTI-Castro, Bay of Pigs guys who were pissed off at JFK for failing to provide air cover.

No, I’ve got it, I’ve got it, it was right-wing Texas Oilmen who thought Kennedy was a little too pink.

Actually, it was a lone gunman named Lee Harvey Oswald.


20 posted on 02/25/2013 5:51:26 PM PST by Signalman
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To: gaijin

What do you think was JBJ’s aim?


21 posted on 02/25/2013 5:55:34 PM PST by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: wideawake

Yes, there was something to be gained.

At that time, the US was not that supportive of Israel and certainly not of any offensive action by Israel; at the time we had actually embargoed Israel. The USS Liberty was a “technical research ship,” i.e. a spy ship.

On June 7&8 the Israelis were planning an attack against the Golan Heights. The Israels did not know how much SigInt had been collected by the USS Liberty, or what type. But they may have feared that if the intelligence collected by the Liberty were provided to the Arabs it could cause the attack to fail disastrously.

The threat was removed when the USS Liberty was crippled. The attack on the Golan Heights was a success.

That is a possible motive for a deliberate attack on the USS Liberty.


22 posted on 02/25/2013 5:57:51 PM PST by Little Ray (Waiting for the return of the Gods of the Copybook Headings.)
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To: donmeaker

I think it mirrored the aims he had in the Gulf of Tonkin Incident; cast American boys as the target of an attack by treacherous foreigners.

And this would justifying a massive, direct US military intervention in a long-standing, far-off conflict.

Except that in this case it would be in theater playing home to most of the world’s energy resources.

Johnson probably figured that the plan would make things simpler in the minds of the credulous US public.

They shot over 800 holes in that thing, but that damned cork just wouldn’t sink —reality intervened, against their plans.


23 posted on 02/25/2013 6:01:33 PM PST by gaijin
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To: Little Ray
...the intelligence collected by the Liberty were provided to the Arabs it could cause the attack to fail disastrously.

I would say that Israel already had proof that information was being given to the Arabs and the official story saves US a whole lot of embarrassment.

24 posted on 02/25/2013 6:08:18 PM PST by the_daug
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To: gaijin

Oddly, Egypt and Israel didn’t have any oil to speak of.

So that theory falls flat with me.

You mileage may vary.


25 posted on 02/25/2013 6:14:22 PM PST by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: wideawake; Kid Shelleen




Yep...real easy to confuse the two...especially by some of the best trained pilots in the world.
26 posted on 02/25/2013 6:16:06 PM PST by rottndog ('Live Free Or Die' Ain't just words on a bumber sticker...or a tagline.)
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To: the_daug

Either way, it explains the attack. I’d have ordered the same thing to protect my troops and my country.


27 posted on 02/25/2013 6:16:06 PM PST by Little Ray (Waiting for the return of the Gods of the Copybook Headings.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Sure. A spy ship with huge communications masts and a large American flag looks just like an Egyptian freighter full of horses.

Propagandists make a run at this on Free Republic every few years. I’m not sure why they keep seeking vindication for the illegal acts. It seems it would be smarter if they just let most folks forget the murder of American servicemen.


28 posted on 02/25/2013 6:28:25 PM PST by PAR35
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To: gaijin
submarine joined the attack,

And the crazy keeps on growing

29 posted on 02/25/2013 6:34:30 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (I think, therefore I am what I yam, and that's all I yam - "Popeye" Descartes)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Oh, great. Here come the neo-Nazi and Ayrab trolls.


30 posted on 02/25/2013 6:44:03 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: DuncanWaring
I worked with a Jim Cotton back in the mid 70’s that was when i first heard anything about it he was on the ship..God rest his soul he pass away in the late 1990
31 posted on 02/25/2013 6:52:45 PM PST by 567thadm (Hagel, rino, Colin Powell,uss Liberty)
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To: Kid Shelleen

The Liberty Incident
Gag Orders Debunked
http://www.thelibertyincident.com/gag-orders-debunked.html


32 posted on 02/25/2013 6:55:29 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Gotcher Debunked
http://www.thelibertyincident.com/gotcherdebunked.html


33 posted on 02/25/2013 6:56:36 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

The Liberty Incident
Documents
[Debunking of neo-Nazi conspiracy tales.]
http://www.thelibertyincident.com/documents.html


34 posted on 02/25/2013 6:58:00 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Why You Shouldn’t Pay Attention to the Claims that Israel Attacked the USS Liberty Deliberately
http://hnn.us/articles/39936.html

[I don’t have time to reply to anti-American, anti-Israel REMFs, BTW. They should move back to their Axis countries.]


35 posted on 02/25/2013 7:02:44 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

The USS Liberty Attack - Facts vs Fiction
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/the-uss-liberty-attack-—facts-vs-fiction/question-2700623/

[Another one to read while ignoring any fans of Hagel.]


36 posted on 02/25/2013 7:05:18 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: gaijin

I think you pretty much summed it up accurately.....


37 posted on 02/25/2013 7:07:07 PM PST by levon
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To: Kid Shelleen

Myths debunked on Israel’s 1967 attack on USS Liberty
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0715cristol0715.html?&wired&nclick_check=1


38 posted on 02/25/2013 7:07:54 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Investigations of the Liberty Tragedy
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty2.html


39 posted on 02/25/2013 7:18:28 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Israeli Attack on USS Liberty
What happened to the USS Liberty during the Six Day War?
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_uss_liberty.php
(great site worth reading more of—lots of facts on quite a few topics)


40 posted on 02/25/2013 7:26:03 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: Stepan12

When I was a n00b, I posted to A+ thinking he was kidding about something, and boy did I get flamed! LOL.


41 posted on 02/25/2013 7:30:23 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: familyop

Surely you can allow Americans to discuss their GIs being attacked and killed without calling them Nazis, Arabs, and trolls.

This is an American forum.

“Our Commanding Officer, Captain William Loren McGonagle, received the Congressional Medal of Honor

Our Executive Officer, Lieutenant Commander Philip McCutcheon Armstrong, received the Navy Cross posthumously

Several men received the Silver Star Medal, some posthumously

Several men received the Bronze Star Medal, some posthumously

205 men received the Purple Heart Medal, 34 posthumously

All crewmen received the Combat Action Ribbon

All crewmen share the Presidential Unit Citation”


42 posted on 02/25/2013 7:41:27 PM PST by ansel12 (Romney is a longtime supporter of homosexualizing the Boy Scouts (and the military).)
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Kid Shelleen

“tarring me as a running dog for the “Jewish/Zionistapartheid” lobby”

...to which I say “Woof, Woof”


44 posted on 02/25/2013 8:13:17 PM PST by PatHimself
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To: familyop

What a load of personal nonsense, we Americans and American vets will talk about our combat losses and dead heroes, and you sounding like some foreigner attacking the Americans for doing that and labeling them “Arabs”, is really silly.

“Our Commanding Officer, Captain William Loren McGonagle, received the Congressional Medal of Honor

Our Executive Officer, Lieutenant Commander Philip McCutcheon Armstrong, received the Navy Cross posthumously

Several men received the Silver Star Medal, some posthumously

Several men received the Bronze Star Medal, some posthumously

205 men received the Purple Heart Medal, 34 posthumously

All crewmen received the Combat Action Ribbon

All crewmen share the Presidential Unit Citation”


45 posted on 02/25/2013 8:21:48 PM PST by ansel12 (Romney is a longtime supporter of homosexualizing the Boy Scouts (and the military).)
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To: ansel12
"What a load of personal nonsense, we Americans and American vets will talk about our combat losses and dead heroes,..."

I posted some links above to the facts on the topic, and you've posted only the fallacious appeals to emotional responses followed by he-said-she-said arguments. You've replied only with personal nonsense and are implying that you're an American "vet." Are you or not?


46 posted on 02/25/2013 8:34:51 PM PST by familyop (cbt. engr. (cbt), NG, '89-' 96)
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To: ansel12

“you sounding like some foreigner’

That’s what Israel Firsters sound like, because that is where their loyalty lies.


47 posted on 02/25/2013 8:36:21 PM PST by PatHimself
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To: familyop

Man, you are rambling with nonsense, I haven’t even offered an opinion, except to tell you how absurd it is for Americans on an American conservative forum to be called Nazis, and “Arabs” for discussing their men killed in combat.

It must have been an incredibly bloody and hard fought battle, the heroics were extraordinary.

“Our Commanding Officer, Captain William Loren McGonagle, received the Congressional Medal of Honor

Our Executive Officer, Lieutenant Commander Philip McCutcheon Armstrong, received the Navy Cross posthumously

Several men received the Silver Star Medal, some posthumously

Several men received the Bronze Star Medal, some posthumously

205 men received the Purple Heart Medal, 34 posthumously

All crewmen received the Combat Action Ribbon

All crewmen share the Presidential Unit Citation”


48 posted on 02/25/2013 10:02:54 PM PST by ansel12 (Romney is a longtime supporter of homosexualizing the Boy Scouts (and the military).)
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To: spel_grammer_an_punct_polise

Very interesting. I’d never heard about a sub being in the area. Sadly, we will probably never learn the whole truth of what happened that day; was it truly a horrific amalgam of errors on the part of both the US and Israel, or was there something more sinister at work? As Churchill once said about Russia, “It is a riddle, wrapped in mystery, inside an enigma.”


49 posted on 02/25/2013 10:32:06 PM PST by Stonewall Jackson (Molon Labe!)
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To: Stonewall Jackson

but I didn’t know there was a submarine involved
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Of course a Submarine was involved.

How else do you think the ‘torpedo’ boats got there?

And if a journalist(???) said it, it must be true.


50 posted on 02/25/2013 10:46:14 PM PST by xrmusn (6/98 "It is virtually impossible to clean the pond as long as the pigs are still crapping in it")
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