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Ruth: Slavery's reality contradicts Sons of Confederate Veterans, Civil War revisionists
Tampa Bay Times ^ | January 20, 2014 | Danial Ruth

Posted on 01/24/2014 8:00:53 AM PST by rockrr

It seems fitting that the de facto anthem of the Confederacy during the Civil War, which some people might still be shocked to learn the North won, turned out to be "Dixie."

After all, since Gen. Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox there's been no shortage of looking away, looking away at the reality of history when it comes to the Civil War.

Nowhere is that full flower of denial more apparent than among the followers of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, which is upset about a proposal to erect a monument to Union soldiers who died in the Battle of Olustee, regarded by historians as the largest and deadliest engagement in Florida during the "wowrah." Related News/Archive

Next month marks the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Olustee, about 45 miles west of Jacksonville. Some 2,000 Union troops died in the conflict, while 1,000 Confederate soldiers also perished in an engagement that did not substantially alter the course of the Civil War.

The 3-acre Olustee Battlefield Historic State Park includes three monuments honoring the Confederate troops who fought and died in the encounter. But when the Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War pushed for a memorial on the site to pay homage to the sacrifices of their forbearers, hostilities ensued. So did illiterate silliness.

(Excerpt) Read more at tampabay.com ...


TOPICS: History; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: civilwar; dixie; scv; wbts
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1 posted on 01/24/2014 8:00:53 AM PST by rockrr
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To: rockrr

Oh yes the War Between the States

the War of Northern Aggression..

the South will rise again...


2 posted on 01/24/2014 8:03:36 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: rockrr
Baxley is a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans

Baxley, the Republican, is a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans who is opposing a monument to Union soldiers, who mostly were all Republicans. My Pennsylvania, Republican, Union Civil War veteran ancestors would be spinning in their graves.

3 posted on 01/24/2014 8:08:57 AM PST by Opinionated Blowhard ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: rockrr

LOL.

Maybe they didn’t get the memo that the North won and the South lost.


4 posted on 01/24/2014 8:11:06 AM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: Opinionated Blowhard

You have to pity him for his self-identity confusion...


5 posted on 01/24/2014 8:12:46 AM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

Actually the South did rise again - and is doing quite nicely thank you ;’)


6 posted on 01/24/2014 8:14:26 AM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: rockrr

7 posted on 01/24/2014 8:17:41 AM PST by stormer
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To: rockrr

I like how lefties use name calling. Let’s see:

“Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Foghorn Leghorn”, “poppycock wrapped in balderdash enshrouded in piffle”, “Welcome To Gooberville.”, “band of bumpkins”.

I’m sure Mr. Ruth has a point, but I guess he’s too lazy to actually have a discussion, and prefers name calling.

Also from the article: “The Civil War wasn’t about honor. It wasn’t about tradition. It wasn’t about some obtuse romantic notion of strolling under the kudzu.”

Hey Dan, you Goobervill Bumpkin, what kind of Piffle is that? Kudzu wasn’t even introduced to this country until a decade AFTER the civil war.


8 posted on 01/24/2014 8:19:43 AM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

the war’s over, you lost, get over it.


9 posted on 01/24/2014 8:19:53 AM PST by Daveinyork (IER)
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To: rockrr

Daniel Ruth is kind of a confused socialist/national socialist radical leftist, defender of savage criminals, hater of everything southern, which is no surprise since before he was canned, he was a Chicagoan and worked for the Sun-Times. The Pulitzer committee, true to form, frequently mails him his prizes.

He was hired by the Tampa Bay Times by a woman described as a “Mussolini” type.


10 posted on 01/24/2014 8:19:59 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (WoT News: Rantburg.com)
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To: rockrr
Some 2,000 Union troops died in the conflict, while 1,000 Confederate soldiers also perished in an engagement that did not substantially alter the course of the Civil War.

Those were total casualties, not deaths. Astonishing how many morons do not comprehend that there is a difference.

11 posted on 01/24/2014 8:20:39 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Opinionated Blowhard
Correct. They need to be show some class and reciprocity. There is no shortage of Confederate monuments on the battlefields at Gettysburg.

And, yes, I realize that Robert E. Lee's army acted with far more class and dignity in its invasion of Pennsylvania than Sherman's army did the following year in their invasion of Georgia.

12 posted on 01/24/2014 8:20:52 AM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: rockrr
And if you believe that poppycock wrapped in balderdash enshrouded in piffle, you probably also buy into the notion the nearly 4 million people owned as chattel by their slave owners at the start of the Civil War happily wiled away their hours, gleefully toting those barges and lifting those bails with their only care in the world centered around how to invest their 401k plans.

The writer is a bit confused. The bail doesn't come until after you get drunk.
13 posted on 01/24/2014 8:20:53 AM PST by Dr. Sivana (The only thing that can save us is if Kerry wins the Nobel prize and leaves us alone.--Moshe Yaalon)
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To: rockrr

There is a concrete obelisk at Jefferson Davis’ birthplace in Kentucky. The man who is in charge of the Jefferson Davis Monument State Historic Site is a retired Marine, a UC Berkeley grad, and a big admirer of Jefferson Davis...and he’s black.


14 posted on 01/24/2014 8:22:18 AM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: lacrew
Well, then it really wasn't about "some obtuse romantic notion of strolling under the kudzu.”

Was it? :)

15 posted on 01/24/2014 8:22:37 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: rockrr
The article is noteworthy in two respects:

1. Its written specifically to incite and belittle.
2. The writer bears an uncanny resemblance to the head orangutan in the original Planet of the Ape movie.

On the merits of the underlying issue, I can't see a problem with monument to the Union dead, although I get the strong sense that this newspaper hack considers the Confederates to be equivalent to SS. What personally motivated Confederate soldiers was clearly not slavery (very few owned slaves and their letters indicated that they thought little about the issue), although it is hard to imagine the war developing without the underlying issue of slavery.

16 posted on 01/24/2014 8:26:15 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: rockrr
the largest and deadliest engagement in Florida during the "wowrah.

I do believe that's spelled "wowahr."

17 posted on 01/24/2014 8:27:29 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Daveinyork
the war’s over, you lost, get over it.
Yeah, you'd think so, it's only been 150 friggin' years.
I'm also surprised by the number of people who think Lee was an "American hero."
Try this. A good read and a real eye opener ...
18 posted on 01/24/2014 8:30:32 AM PST by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: rockrr

There is a monument to Henry Wirz, commander of the Confederate prison camp for Union soldiers in Andersonville, GA in the town square.


19 posted on 01/24/2014 8:33:25 AM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral)
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To: rockrr
in an engagement that did not substantially alter the course of the Civil War

Lost interest right there.

There were about 10,000 "engagements" during the war, of which less than 100 were classified as battles. Of all those battles probably 1/3 of them "substantially" altered the outcome of the war.

Virtually none of the battles fought after Gettysburg were going to turn the tide for the South. The writing was on the wall. Lee Read it, Grant knew it.

20 posted on 01/24/2014 8:34:45 AM PST by Michael.SF. (I never thought anyone could make Jimmy Carter look good in comparison.)
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To: Michael.SF.

Correction: “probably” should have said “possibly”.


21 posted on 01/24/2014 8:37:21 AM PST by Michael.SF. (I never thought anyone could make Jimmy Carter look good in comparison.)
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To: rockrr

Well, would not northerners be upset if someone tried to erect a monument to confederate soldiers somewhere in the north? Look at how they feel about the Confederate flag or celebrating Lee’s birthday.


22 posted on 01/24/2014 8:41:42 AM PST by jeffc (The U.S. media are our enemy)
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To: stormer

Show that pic to your yankee friends. Maybe it will deter anymore of them from moving to GA and then voting to try to turn us into the Yankee chithole they left. :-)


23 posted on 01/24/2014 8:42:17 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: SampleMan
very few owned slaves

Not really accurate.

Here's a link to the percentage of slaveowning families in southern states per the 1860 census. MS was 49% and SC 46%.

http://civilwarcauses.org/stat.htm

The claim that only 6% (or whatever) of southerners owned slaves is technically accurate, in that title was usually vested in the head of the house, thus wife and children were not technically slaveowners. The problem with this is that by this definition Scarlett O'Hara would not be considered a slaveowner, since her father probably had title to the slaves in his name. But that certainly isn't how Scarlett would have thought of herself.

Here's another link to a discussion of slave owning among CSA soldiers. Slaveowners (in their own name) were in a decided majority among officers.

Fewer enlisted men, being on average considerably less prosperous, owned slaves in their own name, but more than one in three came from slaveowning families.

http://deadconfederates.com/2011/04/28/ninety-eight-percent-of-texas-confederate-soldiers-never-owned-a-slave/

I don't know what you classify as "very few," but to my mind more than one in three to more than one in two doesn't qualify.

BTW, this correction aside, I agree with your post.

24 posted on 01/24/2014 8:43:20 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

2500 CIVIL WAR VETERANS MEET AT GETTYSBURG, 1938

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwRbDxf7kT4


25 posted on 01/24/2014 8:46:28 AM PST by Texas Fossil
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To: Dr. Sivana

At least the bandleader Harry James had two first names that were both male. This guy? Hmmmmm.


26 posted on 01/24/2014 8:47:55 AM PST by PeteyBoy (Better a TEApartier than a teabagger be.)
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To: jeffc
Well, would not northerners be upset if someone tried to erect a monument to confederate soldiers somewhere in the north?

Well, there are at least a couple dozen at Gettysburg, PA.

http://www.gettysburg.stonesentinels.com/Confederate.php

Erected over a period of 1884 to 1982.

Here's a memorial to Confederate dead at the Battle of Westport, in what is now Kansas City. I grew up not far from here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Westport#Memorials

Since almost all the battles were fought in Confederate states, there isn't a lot of opportunity to erect memorials to CSA dead in the North.

Speaking as a northerner, though presently living in an ex-Confederate state, I would not object to a memorial to brave men who fought and died for their beliefs.

27 posted on 01/24/2014 8:51:02 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Dr. Sivana

And only lonely coyotes “wile” away their hours. Most folks would prefer to “while” them away.


28 posted on 01/24/2014 8:52:20 AM PST by IronJack
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To: Sherman Logan
I mean if someone tried to do it today, as the article was describing.

The article was a bit rambling, not well written - probably only proofread once or twice, but do I understand this correctly: A group tried to get a Confederate monument erected and now it looks like they'll erect a Union monument?

29 posted on 01/24/2014 8:57:53 AM PST by jeffc (The U.S. media are our enemy)
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To: Sherman Logan

Hey Sherm would it make you happy if we carve a whiskey bottle on Stone Mountain in honor of General Grant? I could live with it. :-)


30 posted on 01/24/2014 8:59:43 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Texas Fossil
2500 CIVIL WAR VETERANS MEET AT GETTYSBURG, 1938

That was something. Thanks for posting.

31 posted on 01/24/2014 9:05:50 AM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

Most of the poor schmucks who had to do the heavy lifting in the war on both sides didn’t have a lot of animosity between themselves afterwards, and frequently even during it.

All of the friends of mine that hale from northen regions are unanimous that any type of “CWII” that comes about isn’t going to be a “north v south” thing, it’s going to be a “progressives v patriots” or “producers v parasites” conflict...


32 posted on 01/24/2014 9:19:21 AM PST by Axenolith (Government blows, and that which governs least, blows least...)
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To: Sherman Logan

In many of those poorer families, it was more akin to buying an extra son to help work the farm, than in owning a “Slave”.

And many became sharecroppers, later in life.


33 posted on 01/24/2014 9:20:48 AM PST by tcrlaf (Well, it is what the Sheeple voted for....)
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To: Georgia Girl 2
"Show that pic to your yankee friends. Maybe it will deter anymore of them from moving to GA and then voting to try to turn us into the Yankee chithole they left. :-)"

LOL, no kidding. Yankees moving south = inevitable deterioration of the place where they come to roost. This is true in a political sense, of course. But it's also true that the standards of manners and politeness suffer, as well.

Yankees largely are an overwrought, fuming bunch of people.

34 posted on 01/24/2014 9:21:57 AM PST by CatherineofAragon ((Support Christian white males----the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization.))
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To: Sherman Logan

If their cousin owned slaves, I presume that they were from a slave owning family?

I would have to question the stats you presented based on the fact taht if 6% (individuals) is technically correct and 49% (families) is also correct, then the term family is being used to refer to entire clans.

Given that ~40% of the southern population were slaves, slavery was common, yet not as broad based as you suggest. Slaves were expensive and you had to have significant land/work for it to make any financial sense.

I look at it this way. How many people employ someone, compared to how many people have someone in their extended family that employs someone.

Of southern white families (momma, papa, and chill’n:
1% owned 100 or more slaves
17% owned 3-10 slaves
4% owned 1-2 slaves
77% owned no slaves
(99% total due to rounding)


35 posted on 01/24/2014 9:24:15 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Axenolith

“it’s going to be a “progressives v patriots” or “producers v parasites” conflict...”

History shows us that the “progressive parasites” almost always win these type of conflicts, then violently suppress any dissent. It’s only after the “Progressives” show their true nature through deadly suppression that the productive sheeple finally wake up. Egypt would be but one recent example of this.

Dissent simply isn’t tolerated when the dissenters take charge.


36 posted on 01/24/2014 9:24:46 AM PST by tcrlaf (Well, it is what the Sheeple voted for....)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
Daniel Ruth is kind of a confused socialist/national socialist radical leftist, defender of savage criminals, hater of everything southern...

You got all that from a single article about SCV intransigence?

37 posted on 01/24/2014 9:34:44 AM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: Sherman Logan
Speaking as a northerner, though presently living in an ex-Confederate state, I would not object to a memorial to brave men who fought and died for their beliefs.

Any beliefs?

38 posted on 01/24/2014 9:35:41 AM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: oh8eleven

I think it was a little more complicated and a little more simple. First there was the culture clash. On the issues in question, both sides were right, and both sides were wrong.

Lee is also more complicated. As a tactician, he seemed to be brilliant, but, then he was going up against idiots, and how much of a factor Stonewall Jackson was is open to debate. but when Lee was opposed by Meade, who seemed to be a competent field commander, it was a disaster for Lee.

What is not generally known is that Meade was in command of the Army of the Potomac until the end of the war, and that Grant was General-in-Chief. In Grant, the North found someone who could win battles, and, even more important, someone who understood modern theater warfare, which was a particular weakness in Southern commanders. A good question is whether Lee was infected by that weakness, or if he was not free to act as a theater commander until the war was almost over.


39 posted on 01/24/2014 9:38:46 AM PST by Daveinyork (IER)
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To: jeffc
Well, would not northerners be upset if someone tried to erect a monument to confederate soldiers somewhere in the north? Look at how they feel about the Confederate flag or celebrating Lee’s birthday.

You are aware that there are dozens of monuments to Confederates at Gettysburg aren't you? Plus several former Confederate leaders, military and civilian, are included in Statuary Hall in the Capitol.

40 posted on 01/24/2014 9:40:18 AM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: jeffc
but do I understand this correctly: A group tried to get a Confederate monument erected and now it looks like they'll erect a Union monument?

No. The Olustee battlefield park, which is run by the state of Florida, has three monuments to Confederate soldiers on the grounds. The Sons of Union Veterans wants to place a monument to Union soldiers and the Sons of Confederate Veterans is opposed to it being placed in the same area as the Confederate monuments.

41 posted on 01/24/2014 9:42:41 AM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: Sherman Logan

Well I guess not...but I don’t think that’s what the author meant. Instead, I think the author is of the belief that Kudzu has always been a fixture in the south...I picked up on it, just because its a signal that he probably knows a lot of other things about the south...but really doesn’t.


42 posted on 01/24/2014 9:47:36 AM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: rockrr
...poppycock wrapped in balderdash enshrouded in piffle...

You have to admit that's pretty funny. He could be describing Obama's State of the Union address.

43 posted on 01/24/2014 9:52:25 AM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: rockrr

Northerners in the Confederate Cemeteries in Illinois and Ohio will not allow the CBF to be flown over the graves of the Confederate soldiers. Where is the outrage?


44 posted on 01/24/2014 9:53:06 AM PST by vetvetdoug
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To: Sherman Logan
Here's a link to the percentage of slaveowning families in southern states per the 1860 census. MS was 49% and SC 46%.

You realize there were thousands of slave owning blacks. Over 3,000 blacks in New Orleans alone who were slave owners. There were black slave breeders too.

45 posted on 01/24/2014 10:00:08 AM PST by ladyjane
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To: All

Yep...We in the south lost....Yep....Look at:
Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Boston, New York, Philadelphia...

Yep...We lost....*ROFL*


46 posted on 01/24/2014 10:04:59 AM PST by Boonie
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To: Georgia Girl 2

There’s tons of them down here Horry County South Carolina.


47 posted on 01/24/2014 10:11:14 AM PST by StoneWall Brigade
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To: vetvetdoug

I’ve been reminded several times over the years that the cornfederates were Americans, too. Isn’t a United States flag sufficient? It is for the rest of us.


48 posted on 01/24/2014 10:17:02 AM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: Daveinyork
the war’s over, you lost, get over it.
It's not over.

We're just experiencing a pregnant pause.



49 posted on 01/24/2014 10:19:00 AM PST by Bratch
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To: Sherman Logan
Not really accurate. Here's a link to the percentage of slaveowning families in southern states per the 1860 census. MS was 49% and SC 46%.

What you have is a link to a knuggle-dragger's best groping, pawing attempt to seize upon statistical data cloaked behind the impenetrable veil of basic illiteracy. The information is supposedly extracted from census records, but the problems are; one, there is no such thing as familial slave ownership (as evidenced by probate and inheritance records in which slaves are treated in the same fashion as the usual sort of individual property) and no such thing as a "slave-owning family" to be counted; two, it was not the purpose of the census to ascertain who owned whom but rather, for the purpose of proportioning representation, to determine how many whites (counted as a whole person) and blacks (counted as three-fifths a person) resided at an address; three, the census was not conducted on a family-to-family basis, but rather door-to-door.

According to the author of the cited material, a collection of white tenant farmers, if they happen, according to the arrangement of their landlord, to cohabitate and having been surveyed by census-taker, not only have all been drafted into a family unit, but have all become the joint owners of any blacks their employer may have quartered among them. I would suppose that this misinterpretation of raw data was deliberate, if I were generous enough to credit the writer for having sufficient intelligence to construct a purposeful deception.

By the way, the UVA database referenced by the cited website actually gives the free population of Mississippi in 1860 as 354,674, and the number of slave-owners as 30,943, which would support a claim that nearly 9% of the free population held slaves. For South Carolina, it's 301,302 to 26,701 for just about 9%, again.

50 posted on 01/24/2014 10:23:32 AM PST by Brass Lamp
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