Posted on 10/21/2023 8:22:02 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
“Hamas terrorists, and those who bring 29 items to the “8 items or less” checkout lane.”
Comparing murderers to grocery shoppers. WOW! I’ll bet this clown got his degrees, if any, from “Buy a Fake Associate’s, Bachelor’s, Master’s or PhD Degree right here!”
“However, when they act according to their own debased free will then they are headed for Hell”. Not quite true. calvinists believe that God makes us do all things. Because he hasn’t chosen us, then it is because of him, that we do all the bad things. My question to all calvinists is always the same-If God has already chosen us (and none of us know if we are chosen or not), then and it doesn’t matter what we choose to believe, so what is the point of Christ’s death and resurrection? Crickets...
I contrast to all the free will decisions made by people everyday. What a moron. Do I get drunk tonight? Yes, no? That’s not a choice? So I do, then I drive. Was that a choice? So I do, then I kill somebody. That was *always* going to happen to that person?
Insanity.
“The world is really screwed up and made much, much more unfair by the fact that we reward people and punish people for things they have no control over. We’ve got no free will. Stop attributing stuff to us that isn’t there.”
This genius is a moron. Well, he’s half right, there is no free will, and therefore no “responsibility” in the true sense of the word.
Where he’s absolutely wrong is that people’s behavior can’t be changed.
You may not have free will but you react to stimuli and the expectation of stimuli, in a particular way, and you “learn” from that experience.
The choices you make depend heavily on your perception of the consequences of those choices, and you adjust your behavior based on whether those consequences make you happier or sadder - the old “pursuit of happiness” - the driving force behind all human behavior.
Nature imposes consequences and you learn from them. You touch a hot stove, you just learned not to touch a hot stove, and odds are very high you won’t do it again.
Humans (society) can also impose consequences that can cause you to change your behavior. In order to promote a semblance of peaceful coexistence, societies impose certain good or bad consequences (rewards/punishments) on choices you make depending on whether those choices advance or decrease peaceful coexistence. You steal something, you lose your freedom for a period of time. Most people see that as a sufficiently negative consequence so that they don’t steal.
Some don’t and continue stealing, so society imposes harsher consequences. And if the person still doesn’t alter his behavior society will remove him from circulation by keeping him jailed.
So this guy is completely wrong in saying that rewards and punishments are somehow “unfair”. He doesn’t understand the role of rewards and punishment - it’s about controlling behavior, not punishment per se. Regardless of whether people are “responsible”, in the real sense of the word, for their behavior, behavior can be changed by applying certain consequences of those behaviors. And therefore society imposes consequences (rewards/punishments, ie, laws) to advance “domestic tranquility”. And that’s absolutely necessary or you’d have constant chaos and strife.
Well, if true, why do some people choose to live righteously while others take to darker more self-destructive paths? Is it just a differences of chemicals in the individuals’ brains? And if so, can it not be then simply treated?
You are a product of your environment and therefore you can be conditioned for good behavior. But since you are a product of your environment, you can’t be at fault for bad behavior.
We, the people, are so screwed.
You are correct.
See my later post #44.
To deny one has no free will, is to deny one’s humanity.
So I take it this guy is trying to convince me that I shouldn’t support punishment for people committing crimes “they had no control over”.
It’s almost like he’s assuming I have the free will to change my position on that matter or something.
Placebo’s work because your will believes they will work. Placebo’s actually work due to a manifestation of free will.
They are directly related.
We all experience free will. In a broad sense, we all observe it in ourselves. We are seldom disappointed when we infer free will in others.
The burden of proof is upon those who tell us that free will is an illusion. I see my hands and feet. They can tell me that is an illusion also. They’re selling, but I’m not buying.
The same arguments apply to self-awareness. I take self-awareness as direct evidence that I am a self - something immaterial. Self, mind, soul are related terms, possibly synonyms.
Is anything right or wrong? If you’ve lived a little, you know the answer is yes.
Self, free-will, good and evil, are real yet immaterial. If you believe in one or all (and we all do), then you believe in the supernatural. That does not mean that you have to believe in ghosts, etc.
Follow the logic of what you stated, “The result is not because of free will, it is a result of free will (choosing to take the placebo). You’re talking about the after effects of free will.”
so then...it isn’t free will to claim there’s no free will? good to know. of course that means that no free will leads to no consequences for actions because there’s no free will. circular arguments are a hallmark of the the progressive mind but at least now we ALL know why...No free will.
Rush fans have entered the chat.
The world as college professors wish it was...
“But since you are a product of your environment, you can’t be at fault for bad behavior.”
It’s not about “fault” or “punishment” or “responsibility”.
It may not be your “fault” for behaving as you do. Granted, you had no control over the “hardware” you were born with. But your behavior can be controlled to a fair degree by imposing certain consequences. Some may be painful and people might see them as punishment, but punishment is not the goal. The goal is to promote acceptable behavior that results in “domestic tranquillity”, and sometimes only painful consequences work. You may try softer means at first, like maybe a threat, but if that doesn’t work you go the next step.
That’s one of the key reasons for the establishment of governments.
“We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure DOMESTIC TRANQUILITY, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
There are many variations of this debate.
First, children and people in dependency or co-dependency do not have free will as the have surrendered their will to another person.
People who have taken their power from others and have self actuated think they have free will, but they do not. It is an illusion.
Then people go through a mid-life crisis and get frustrated as they find their free will is very limited.
Next a person transcends self or ego self and experiences a greater reality where their free will is much greater as long as it is aligned with Divine Will.
Thus the question of free will is not simple..
When a person is possessed, they lose their free will.
Yes, I was pointing out that they are after effects of free will.
Maybe I didn’t understand what you were saying. The placebo example doesn’t prove free will. I would ask you in your example, what about those that take the placebo and don’t get better-does that mean they don’t have free will?
This is fascinating. Off topic but I have a friend who believes in ghosts, Bigfoot, demons, aliens....but not God per se, nor Jesus Christ. Burns sage ‘n such to ward off evil. I don’t get it. I keep working on her hoping to bring her back into the fold nonetheless.
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