Notice Regarding Immigration Related Threads

[Lead Moderator]

Hello everyone.

I've been talking to some long time Freepers via email for several weeks (one in particular). His concern was over the immigration threads and how they turn out on Free Republic.

Many times these threads turn into flame wars. There appears to be a lot of pent up hostility that various factions have developed for each other which ends up coming out, over and over, and the result is that the threads turn into a lot of crap. The moderators get hit with dozens of abuse reports over personal attacks and other silliness. Eventually, it becomes more work than is really worthwhile, and the threads get moved to the backroom so we don't have to deal with it.

This is an OK status quo when it occurs just occasionally. But when it happens frequently, it is not OK. That means that there is a problem.

So we are going to try to fix the problem.

There are sincere people on both sides of the debate who have gotten too into the battle that they are no longer being constructive. The goal will be to help them get back on track.

But we have two groups of people who are completely not sincere.

One group is those who really have no other goal other than to try to fracture conservatives and turn them on each other. One group is those who think that those most concerned with immigration are really just bigots and want to shout them down.

The good news is that both of these groups are very, very small. The bad news is that lots of people are firmly convinced that many of those who are just riled up sincere Freepers are actually part of one of these small groups. In other words, a lot of suspicion of motives has come about.

We're going to have to overcome that.

One of us tried something with a topic which had developed a similar problem, the Creation/Evolution threads. We'll give that type of approach a try for the immigration threads.

So here is what is going to happen. Starting tomorrow, when I see an immigration related thread go up, I am going to post immediately a warning that this would be a very bad thread to engage in insulting or flame baiting. When I see someone ignoring the warning, I'll address them personally telling them to knock it off.

What we need those who are serious about the issue to do is to act responsibly during this time. Engage in debate, without the insults. Post arguments, not ad hominems. Post facts, not innuendos. If you don't like someone, figure out a way to not have it get in the way of your postings. If you want to be disagreeable, do so without being needlessly disrespectful and instigative.

What will happen is, over time with this approach, those who are just trying to stir up crap, and those who are unable to help themselves, will stick out like sore thumbs and will get the axe.

And once that happens, then more direct involvement will not be needed, which I think everyone will agree is the preferred way.

So ping those who you know are interested in debating the topic to this thread, so they can see what is coming.

Thanks

[PhiKapMom]

That is what has happened here in OK -- our INS is very undermanned.

[DLfromthedesert]

I have nothing personally against ILLEGAL immigrants who are trying to better themselves and are desperated and just want to work so they can feed themselves and their families.

I DO have a problem with those that cross the borders to have their babies and put them on OUR welfare system; THAT is thievery. I have a problem with the people smugglers who abandon people to die in the desert, and I have a problem with Vicente Fox and other Mexican elites who are using OUR country to provide for THEIR people, when they are so rich in their own resources. THEY are the deadbeats!!

I believe we, as a country, should uphold our laws, and if we NEED people to work, we should have them here LEGALLY, and NOT allow businesses to hire people under the table and lay the entire problem on American taxpayers.

[Cultural Jihad]

I'm tired of being referred to as a bigot, racist, or xenophobe just because I want the illegals to be forced to comply with the law.

Indeed, there are many Hispanics who are as adamantly opposed to illegal immigration, but you won't see them spouting off about how abject and despicable and criminal and uppity their people or language or culture or holidays are. That is another reason that threads related to immigration must remain on topic and not drift into Anglo-jingoistic whining and hand-wringing.

[Cultural Jihad]

Well, it sounds like we have more of a problem with cushy liberal handouts and not with economic refugees.

[Cultural Jihad]

Apart from the scandalous book you mentioned, all the problems you listed could be addressed with some sort of normalization of their legal status.

[janetgreen]

Interesting timing. As President Bush seems to be on the verge of rewarding millions of criminals, and creating a "free for all" chaos that will attract literally millions more criminals.

Ain't that the truth! And he doesn't want any noise about it either.

[TruthNtegrity]

This is a most excellent idea.

I have long hated a selected few who show up on any immigration thread and start to call us who want more immigration control of any sort, "bigots" and worse, dissolving the discussion into name-calling.

Thank you for this. I think it will seriously impact the tenor of these discussions in a positive way, and I will no longer be afraid to show up and post any facts or opinions or concerns that I have.

TNT

[riri]

Apart from the scandalous book you mentioned, all the problems you listed could be addressed with some sort of normalization of their legal status

If we had a government, court system and groups like the ACLU who were not actively working against assimilating these people into our culture, language and way of life.

That's the real issue I suppose. But mixed together it is a recipe for the eventual balkanization of our once great country.

[Cultural Jihad]

Yes, balkanization is something greatly to be avoided, but no one has said how normalizing guest workers would contribute to that. Indeed, it seems that normalization would work toward integration rather than balkanization. And let's be honest. We need to remove the liberal handouts and incentives to remain insular.

[Bikers4Bush]

Well I'm guessing that I can now add "Anglo-jingoistic hand-wringing whiner" to my former list, unless of course you were speaking generally and not specifically.

In my opinion all illegals are "abject and despicable and criminal and uppity" just by the very nature of their crime.

Coming here uninvited and unwanted.

[DLfromthedesert]

It's the POLICIES that are the problem; but we also have to acknowledge the fact that along with the economic refugees, there are crossers who are drug dealers, possible terrorists, and other criminals.

One third of our prisons (in Arizona) are illegals; they are NOT economic refugees.

[american spirit]

Isn't it amazing how some folks are unconcerned about how dangerous illegal immigration is until tragedy strikes. It would be great to hear from folks who've been directly affected by seeing a loved one robbed, raped or murdered by one of these invaders. Heck, the jails are full of these creatures......they've obviously "terrorized" someone!

[LayoutGuru2]

Amen, thanks for getting on top of this. It has come to the point that I have been avoiding these threads because I had to read through the 'toxins' to get to the 'beef'.

[Cultural Jihad]

Isn't it amazing how some folks are unconcerned about how dangerous illegal immigration is until tragedy strikes. It would be great to hear from folks who've been directly affected by seeing a loved one robbed, raped or murdered by one of these invaders.

If we as a nation or as conservatives who honor and uphold individual responsibility were enraptured with tribal justice then your words would make sense. "Hey, one of your people did something terrible to one of my people, and therefore you are all guilty!" just doesn't cut it in America in the 21st century.

[american spirit]

It's not about tribal justice or us against them....it's hard to believe the mayhem that's been created by the fedgov's abject failure to protect our borders.

[TaxRelief]

I learned to stay away from the creation/evolution threads and the legal/illegal immigration threads after just a few posts.

[hchutch]

The thing is, a lot of the "guest worker" thing was done prior to 1965, and it worked reasonably well. We didn't really have a lot of this illegal problem until the bracero program was ended in 1965.

Gun control laws, for the most part, do not deliver what their proponents promise, and they infringe upon the liberties of decent people. As such, I think most of them need to be repealed, and the rest need to be reformed.

I believe the Endangered Species Act has been grossly misapplied for the most part. Noble goals, but there have been horror stories and other instances which have required changes. Conservatives did that when the Endangered Species Act was restricting the type of training our forces could do. In fact, the court case over SURTASS LFA resulted in Congress giving the military a LOT more leeway when it came to the Marine Mammal Protection Act that it had previously.

I've seen and heard enough from some sources to convince me that some immigration laws are being misapplied, and others were badly thought out - and some of the people caught up in that mess ought to be cut some slack. Seeking changes consistent with that basis, and to deal with the problems associated with illegal immigration in a rational and humane manner is, if you ask me, consistent with being a conservative.

I believe in rule of law, but "rule of law" should NOT be used to excuse bad laws or the misapplication of the law. Both of those condition seem to be the case with some of the immigration laws at the present, and changes are needed. I see no inconsistency with being a conservative and insisting that the immigration laws be reformed.

[skeeter]

"Hey, one of your people did something terrible to one of my people, and therefore you are all guilty!" just doesn't cut it in America in the 21st century.

But... what if they ARE all guilty?

[NewRomeTacitus]

"when several illegals got off the train outside the fence at Kelly AFB, went over the fence, and stopped a car to get a ride. It was the Base Commander's car -- didn't take long for those illegals to get a one-way ticket back to Mexico. Even the usual people who condoned the illegals were silent on that one! Normally it took awhile to get people deported -- not this time -- it was immediate."

Yet many members keep saying that the military can't or shouldn't be part of the solution. Actually it's their primary mission and only politics has kept them from doing it. The ACLU, the immigration lobby and their lawyers, the Democrats: none may interfere with our military the way they've sabotaged all other attempts at border control.

[HiJinx]

Forgive me if I'm jumping into the middle of a conversation here, having read nothing relative to it until now...

It would be great to hear from folks who've been directly affected by seeing a loved one robbed, raped or murdered by one of these invaders.

I live in the county (Cochise, AZ) that now has the distinction of having the most heavily crossed border with Mexico.

I live daily with the damage caused by illegal aliens and their smugglers. The cost to people, property, environment, pursuit of happiness, or anything else you choose is incalculable.

This is why I started frequenting and pinging people to these threads.

People like to say that the Canadian border is more porous, and therefore more dangerous. People like to say that the lack of inspections of containers in our seaports is the single greatest danger. People say that the Mexicans are only here to do the work that others won't do.

To those people, I say "Nuts!"

Come live with me for a month, see what I see, learn what I've learned, live what I and my neighbors have lived...then go home and educate your neighbors and your elected representatives.

Michelle Malkin calls this an invasion. She couldn't be more right if her life depended on it.

For those who haven't heard yet, this is one relic of an illegal immigrant who entered the country through Cochise County. The FBI says he is a lonely Iranian dissident student. To which I say, "So what? Does that mean he necessarily isn't a terrorist?" Believe me, their explanation doesn't make me feel one iota safer.