The Bush Proposal (Interesting article by Linda Chavez on the Immigration Proposal)

Nothing has changed since yesterday.

Granting legal status to illegal aliens is the same as granting a pardon. In this case, that pardon equals backdoor amnesty. This initiative by PresBush is basically a repeat of the same bad policy decision made by PresReagan in 1986. That legislation was suppose to solve the illegal immigration problem. It didn't. What PresBush proposed yesterday, won't solve the illegal immigration problem either. Holding employers accountable for hiring illegals, should be a major part of any plan that addresses the criminal intent aspect. Bottom line. Without stricter border enforcement efforts, the problem of illegal immigration will only be perpetuated. We've got to shut the door closed, before we can effectively clean up the immigration mess with coherent legislation that has real teeth. There should be no reward offered for breaking the law. Illegals should be prosecuted, then deported or imprisoned.

Great ideas and something that is needed!

Many Repubs are blaming him for it because he has the intestinal fortitude to try to do SOMETHING to fix it. Even if you disagree on what (which I can certainly appreciate) I think we should give President Bush credit for trying to solve the problem rather than push it off into the future for another administration to deal with.

Let's be clear. GWB is throwing in the towel. He won't secure our borders so the war on drugs and the war on terrorism is a F A R C E ! Point, Game, Set, Match!

And that is why, Mr. Lincoln, the south simply cannot tolerate--nor can this nation tolerate--the elimination of slavery at this point in time.

Which was EXACTLY Lincoln's position before the Civil War. His position was to oppose the SPREAD of slavery to the new territories, but to not prohibit the practice of slavery in the then-existing slave states. His hope was that slavery being limited in place, would be on the road to extinction, but he was not in favor of actively bringing about that extinction.

The Civil War changed all that.

Some interesting facts about immigrants and immigration.

The total number of immigrants per year (including illegal and refugees) is somewhat less than it was in the peak years at the start of the 20th century, when the US population was less half as large its current population. The rate of immigration relative to the population is low rather than high. Immigration as a proportion of population is about a third of what is was in the peak years in the early part of the 20th century..
In the early part to of the 20th century (1910-1920) the major debate in politics was that immigrants form southern Europe were going to destroy this country. Those sneaky "I"talians and the dirty Irishman would bring this country to ruination. It seems the hatred has shifted to immigrants from Mexico?
The U.S. government has forecast a shortage of 20 million workers by 2026 due to the aging baby boom and job growth. Under the conditions that we now confront, we should be very carefully focused on the contribution which skilled people from abroad, (as well as) unskilled people from abroad, can contribute to this country, as they have for generation after generation.
By the year 2050 according to Census projections racial and ethnic minorities will outnumber non-Hispanic whites. In the next fifty years this demographic shift will transform politics and business. If us conservatives lose the Hispanic vote, then we lose the nation.
In the last decade hi tech professional immigrants have made extraordinary contributions to cutting edge US industries. It is estimated that almost one quarter of Silicon valley firms were established by immigrants.
Businesses founded by immigrants are a source of substantial economic and fiscal gain for U.S. citizens. Ten high-tech firms founded by immigrants (Intel, Sun Microsystems, Computer Associates, Solectron Lam Research, LSI Logic, AST Computer, Wang Laboratories, Amtel, Gupta Technologies, and Cypress Semiconductor) generated $32 billion in revenues in 2002. These and other businesses started by immigrants add at least another $29 billion to the total amount of taxes paid by immigrants.
Immigrant entrepreneurs have revitalized neighborhood; from Dominicans in Manhattan's Washington Heights to Cubans in Miami's Little Havana, Hispanic immigrants have transformed their communities into thriving economically dynamic strongholds. Of particular note is the resurgence of small business, which thirty years ago was in decay. Several researchers have suggested that immigration has encouraged the entrepreneurial drive of the total population, significantly contributing to this transformation.
The average education of new immigrants has been increasing with each successive generation. The proportion of adult immigrants with 8 or fewer years of education has been decreasing and the proportion of adult immigrants with 16 years or more has been increasing. The proportion of immigrants with bachelor 's or postgraduate degrees is much higher than the proportion of the native labor force.
Illegal aliens contribute about as much to the public coffers in taxes as they receive in benefits. New data suggests the undocumented pay about 46 percent as much in taxes as do natives, but use about 45 percent as much in services. A poll of the most respected economists found a consensus that both legal and illegal immigrants are beneficial economically. However overall immigrants fare well in terms of income with adult, foreign-born, naturalized citizens actually have higher adjusted gross incomes (averaging $40,502) than families with U.S.-born citizens only ($35,249). There goes the low wage myth.
Most immigrants arrive in the United States in the prime of their working years. More than 70 percent of immigrants are over the age of 18 when they arrive in the United States. That means there are roughly 17.5 million immigrants in the United States today whose education and upbringing were paid for by the citizens of the sending country, not American taxpayers. The windfall to the United States of obtaining this human capital at no expense to American taxpayers is roughly $1.43 trillion. This makes immigrants a fiscal bargain for our country.

Holding employers accountable for hiring illegals, should be a major part of any plan that addresses the criminal intent aspect. Bottom line. Without stricter border enforcement efforts, the problem of illegal immigration will only be perpetuated. We've got to shut the door closed, before we can effectively clean up the immigration mess with coherent legislation that has real teeth.

That works for me and part of what I hope the House/Senate put in this bill.

It's the price we pay for progress in a free market system....

It is no longer a free market system. Employers can now move the means of production outside the country and still market their product here. We are exporting jobs and they won't come back until our standard of living declines to the point that it roughly equates to places like China, whose standard of living will increase with the influx of capital and jobs. We have lost the comparative advantage. So called free trade needs to be examined closely to understand how it is affecting our economy in the long run.

At one time in America's proud history a President spoke to Americans telling us that the government is "for the people, of the people and by the people." And, we stood firm in that powerful covenant.

Today we have a President who tells Americans the government is "for the illegal aliens, of the illegal aliens and by the illegal aliens." And, he wants us to stand firm in this new covenant.

I won't.

Well, President Bush, go kiss up to Vicente Fox all you want. You ain't goin' ta get my vote. You've done real bad and gone too far by rewarding outlaws and your rich campaign donors looking for cheap labor and servants, serfs and slaves and kickin' your loyal law-abiding hard working conservative base, your rock solid citizens in the arse too many times.

I'm breakin' my chains and leavin' the republican plantation.

I don't know if you ever had to go to your local hospital emergency room lately, probably not since you are protected from such regular everyday low class nuisances, but go in one if you can and see the plight, the suffering, the long lines and hopeless looks on the faces of citizens and illegals as they search for medical relief.

We can't even afford to take care of our own citizens let alone those who break the law and enter our country illegally. But we have been, and although you say it makes lettuce cheaper, we are making it up in welfare, social services and education costs several times over the cost of that cheap head of lettuce.

I guess Hillary Clinton and her fellow donkeys are braying up a screeching storm of hope and delight in seeing how you just broke the sacred covenant with your base.

The solution to that is simple: eliminate welfare.

"Why are illegals getting welfare?" why? because they can...I can get you a social security card this pm and have you on welfare by tomorrow. Is this a great country or what? And we thought we were getting a conservative Republican when we voted for GWB November 2000. ROFLMAO

"eliminate welfare?" ROFLMAO...keep dreaming

Thanks for posting this information. I had no idea about those facts. As this reasonable dialog goes on, believe a lot of us are finding out things we never knew.

How are you going to stop that? If they aren't coming in from Mexico, they will come from somewhere else. You say, close the borders, but this proposal deals with the workers who are already here.

I don't know how to change what already is. This issue did not just arise today. The only advice I have for anyone is to always, always increase their skills. But, that has been good advice for a very long time, well before now. You work for yourself, not your employer... there is no loyalty. You must always move ahead. Your employer owes you nothing, than a paycheck.

Demonize the employers that hire the workers. And then force their practices to change? Is it the businesses that are evil? Or is it the cost of production and services? If the workers will be paid at such a low rate, won't the prices of products remain relatively low?

...I can get you a social security card this pm and have you on welfare by tomorrow.

Do you realize what you have just stated? Do you also realize you would be breaking the law? And you are attacking Pres Bush who inherited this problem for trying to do something about the problem! Now that is a laugh!

I don't buy your facts. For example, we don't even know how many illegal immigrants are in the US. USG estimates range from 8 to 15 million. Comparing nineteenth and early 20th century immigration to today is bogus. We are no longer an expanding country with a frontier and a rapidly expanding economy with need for huge amounts of labor. We are now a nation with nearly 300 million people with a much more productive workforce that can produce more with less people.

If immigration is so good for us, why don't we just open the doors and let everyone in who wants to come. Obviously we can't. We need to control the flow of immigrants so we can absorb them in a way that doesn't tax our economy, infrastruture etc. No one is saying stop all immigration.

Here's one route that should be taken:

The Illegals Solution: Credit to Sabertooth.

Dealing with Illegals doesn't have to be the enormous burden on resources many imagine, not would it have to infringe on civil liberties.

I've posted this on a few threads, but I keep getting requests:

This problem is no harder to solve than wanting to solve it. We can get rid of Illegals rather effectively, by rolling up our sleeves and getting the Illegals to get rid of themselves.

The first order of business, of course, is to enforce existing laws on the books against Illegals and those who employ them. Also, politicians must be held to account when they pander otherwise.

Then...

1: Eliminate all mention of Section 245(i), even if expired, from the US Immigration and Naturalization Code. No more Amnesty, ever.

2: Get legislation through Congress that would enable States to deny goodies to Illegals, a la Prop #187.

3: Outlaw Mexican matricula consular IDs, and kick banks accepting them out of the FDIC. Legal depositors will withdraw from recalcitrant banks.

4: Beef up Border Security with manpower, resources, and a Volunteer Reserve, if necessary. No troops, and no messing with posse comitatus, this should be a civilian effort.

5: Beef up the immigration courts and set deportation hearings for two weeks after apprehension, with no bail.

6: Run sting operations at day laborer sites.

7: Establish two-way communication between the IRS and Border Security, and start apprehending and deporting Illegals using false SS numbers (no, the current overhyped voluntary program doesn't count).

8: Seize the assets of businesses knowingly hiring Illegals under the RICO Act, as they are ongoing criminal enterprises. Prosecute executives who knowingly hire Illegals.

9: Compile biometric information on Illegals, and declare that they will be permanently ineligible for immigration and citizenship.

10: If the United States declares that the above proposals against Illegals will be diligently enforced after a certain date, many Illegals will leave beforehand, and a relatively small number of well-publicized cases of enforcement throughout the Lower 48 will result in millions of Illegals deporting themselves.

11: End the busting of immigration caps by limiting family reunification to spouses and dependent children, and counting them against the caps when they are brought in. Require all future immigrants to declare their future intent to bring in family upon arrival. This way, families can immigrate in a controlled, orderly fashion without the current deceptions being used against the American public. We must have truth in immigration.

12: Outlaw anchor babies, and give the option to the Illegal parent of taking the child with them upon deportation, or putting them up for adoption.

13: Outlaw bilingual ballots, and resume the English-speaking requirements for citizenship.

14: Establish English skills as a prerequisite for future immigrants. Let's start admitting folks who will hit the ground running toward assimilation.

15: Shut off new immigration to nations that offer dual citizenship. Disqualify current immigrants from those nations from future American citizenship.

16: Make Mexico and Central America our cheap import sources of choice with tariffs on manufacturing from other sources, especially China.

17: In return, Mexico must open up to American investment by allowing the sale of real estate to us and guaranteeing property our rights. Getting Mexico to fix its economy is crucial.

18: Establish a guest worker program where an initial bond is posted by the Illegal and his employer, say $500 each, with more withheld from the Illegal's earning, as security for his departure from the US by the specified date. Guest worker visas must be applied for in the workers' countries of origin, and participants are only eligible to be employed by their sponsoring employer. Violation of these terms will render the worker ineligible for any future visas or residence in the US. Any guest worker program can only come after anti-Illegal measures are in place. Handshake promises of future diligence will not be trusted from any politician of either party, including President Bush.
The list above is by no means comprehensive, and can be adopted piecemeal or in a single package. That said, incrementalism is probably going to be the way to go, especially politically.

These measures would provide a little carrot and lots of stick for Illegals already here to get themselves out. Some of them will need to be tested in the courts, which is another reason to adopt them piecemeal, so that an injunction against omnibus legislation can't stall the whole effort.

We ought to be looking initially at easy, politically safe legislation, like the new accounting for family reunification, Border Security/IRS cooperation, English speaking citizenship requirements, and a few others. Our politicians are a trembling, timid bunch, and need to gain a little self-confidence before they'll tackle more difficult issues.

Note a few things that aren't on my list: troops or walls on the border. I think they are a futile diversion from cost effective solutions. The best possible wall at the border is to let foreigners know that we respect our sovereignty, and they had best do the same.

Note that their are no house to house searches.

Note also that I don't call for an immigration moratorium, though others may. I think their position is within the respectable mainstream of a dialogue about immigration, and while it's possible that I might change my mind later, but I am not currently persuaded that an outright moratorium is or will be necessary.

The main problem is multimillion-strong mass of Illegals, and the secondary problem is how we currently select legal immigrants for rapid assimilation into American society. I believe my proposals adequately address both situations, but there is certainly room for debate on the back end.

Note also that I have a guest worker program that is actually honest and responsible, and not an Amnesty by another name. My program would ensure that law-abiding foreigners are background-checked before entry, rather than rewarding lawbreaking Illegals after the fact.

All of the above could be adopted while allowing politicians so-inclined to chant the "compassionate conservatism" mantra.

A few final thoughts...

My proposals will cost money and require an expansion of the federal government in certain areas. However, this expense and expansion is all well within the legitimate, Constitutional responsibilities of the federal government. There will be a greater expense initially, as we ramp up to deal with the backlog of Illegals, but a number of my proposals are at least partially self-funding. Also, success in these endeavors will eventually reduce the need for them, and as many Illegals would leave on their own.

In contrast, there would be also be an increased expense and expansion of the government if there is an Amnesty, as checking backgrounds and processing 8 to 12 million Illegals wouldn't be cheap. However, such increases and expansions would only serve to reward the lawlessness of Illegals and the cowardice of politicians, thereby encouraging more of the same in both, unless there were also enforcement proposals like mine in effect for the American Interior.

But, if we strengthened and enforced our laws consistently within our borders, then we don't need the phantom solution of Amnesty anyway.

> What would be the cost of having the US government assume all responsibilities for the upbringing of those US citizens, born on US soil, were their parents to be deported?

If you are born on US soil, you are a US citizen. >

Precisely. I'd bet a huge percentage of the 10 million illegals have kids who are US citizens. What would the curernt bomb throwers recommend? Split up these families and raise the kids at government expense?

It is obvious from your post that you did not read and comprehend what the President said in his speech. If you have a problem, please take it up with the Congress.

President Bush inherited this problem and is now proposing solutions to the United States Congress which is his obligation as President. Now it will be up to Congress to change the Immigration Laws. That is what this Country is founded upon -- a President that proposes, the Congress who writes new laws, and a Judiciary who decides if the laws are Constitutional.

This President did not use an Executive Order to implement any of these proposals. He has made his proposals and they now goes to the Congress where the laws are written. Agree or disagree with his proposal but give President Bush credit for not issuing an Excutive Order.

But forcing them to come out of the underground is sure a start.

I think that's the main idea here, get some control in place. And even if we could deport 10+ million illegals, it would be devastating economically.