Israeli Rabbis Hope to Search Vatican

Associated Press ^ | Jan. 15, 2004 | Gavin Rabinowitz

[Alouette]

JERUSALEM - Israel's chief rabbis, who will meet the pope Friday, said they hope to get permission to search Vatican storerooms for artifacts such as the huge golden menorah that stood in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago.

Vatican officials confirmed the meeting would take place but declined comment on the rabbis' request.

Yehuda Metzger and Shlomo Amar are to have an audience with Pope John Paul II, the first by Israel's chief rabbis in the Vatican. The pope met Israel's previous chief rabbis in the Holy Land during his visit in 2000.

Amar, spiritual leader of Israel's Jews of North African origin, told Army Radio that when he received the invitation, "the truth is I asked them, I could not resist ... I asked them about the Temple vessels and the menorah."

When the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 70 A.D., they took huge amounts of booty home. Legend has it that religious articles from the Temple, including the menorah, were among them.

The Arch of Titus in Rome depicts victorious Roman legions marching off with the seven-branch menorah in hand.

Amar said the Vatican official denied the menorah was there.

"My heart tells me this is not the truth, but that it is some kind of camouflage," Amar said. An aide to the rabbi said the Vatican was not likely to permit a search.

The Vatican will allow the rabbis to view rare Jewish manuscripts in its possession, Amar said.

He said if the rabbis were to come across "other objects," they would be happy to bring them home.

The menorah was the most important symbol of the Temple after the Ark of the Covenant. The image of the biblical menorah is the symbol of the modern state of Israel.

Some Orthodox Jews believe the restoration of the menorah and other holy vessels to Jerusalem would be the first step in rebuilding the Temple, whose site is now occupied by the Al Aqsa Mosque, the third holiest shrine of Islam.

[Alouette]

Albigensians may declare that the Holy Grail is hidden in there, or something equally ridiculous.

Do you think it's ridiculous that documents regarding the Albigensians, or the Cathars, or the Templars, or other suppressed heretical sects may be found there?

Who said anything about the Catholic Church being the "enemy" and why would you think I am targetting Catholics? I just commented on what their archives and storage dungeons might contain. Is it wrong to be academically curious?

I'm not writing a novel.

[TheAngryClam]

Religion was the reason the Jews revolted.

Not considered a smart thing, you know. They got uppity after overthrowing the Seleucid rule.

[Alouette]

are there certain requisites to actually rebuilding the Temple?

Um, yeah. The Messiah has to arrive first. Now, you Christians think he already arrived, but what I mean is, the Messiah triumphant must first be revealed and then rebuild the Temple.

[Askel5]

Perhaps these folksmanaged to find something of interest:

Hi All! One of the more interesting folk traditions in the contemporary Jewish community suggests that the seven-branched Menorah of the Jerusalem Temple, taken to Rome by Titus, is hidden to this day in the Vatican. I am planning a study of these traditions, and am turning to you for any light you can shed on it-- especially stories, references, oral testimony, and interesting historical or contemporary parallels. If you know anything that might help with my research into this oft-repeated tradition, I would appreciate your input.

---

As I remember, and I cannot remember where I heard it, the menorah supposedly survived until the Visigoths took Rome in 410 and then ended up as part of their loot, possibly later deposited Aleric's tomb in southern Italy. I have not run into the more modern fantasy.

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I believe that the removal was in 455 by the Vandals rather than the Visigoths. The relics were later recaptured by Justinian's army under Belisarius, and displayed on parade in Constantinople in 535. Apparently they were then given back to Jewish authorities. procopius writes about them.

My personal speculation is that the Jewish leaders had been persuaded to help finance the Belisarius adventure in return for repossessing their treasures.

The levant was virtually destroyed in the years after 543. It is quite likely, IMO, that the Jewish treasures were looted and destroyed in this period, by marauding faction brigands, or the Persians, or plague-crazed mobs. It was a very unpleasant time.

---

You are right--I remember now. Well, anyway I provided a good example of how unreliable traditions begin! Mac

---

The earliest traditions were that the treasures of Jerusalem were taken by the Visigoths, according to Procopius, or taken by the Vandals, according to ... Procopius! The Vandal "treasure" was recovered with the Justinianic reconquest, and was supposedly returned to Jerusalem. These facts seem to have evaded knowledge in the west, where the treasure became more fabulous and acquired items from the original Solomonic Temple, and a late medieval guidebook, Mirabilis Urbis Romae, cap. 35, reports the Lateran as holding the candelabra, along with the Ark of the Covenant, the tablets of the Law and Aaron's priestly robes. There is a translation which appeared recently in ppb., my copy of which has decided to go missing. I'd be interested in hearing whatever else you have to find.

---

I was also told this legend as a child in Britain. See H Strauss 'The history and form of the seven-branched candlestick of the Hasmonean kings' Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes 22 (1959) p.6f., which discusses the possibility that the menorah survived in Constantinople until 1204, and refers by the way to various other legends. Susan Tel Aviv

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re: Temple Menorah at the Vatican I've often wondered if the story in Orosius' History 7.39, where the Goths and Romans have a sort of triumphal procession to restore treasures to St. Peter's Basulica, might have some relevance to the Temple Menorah legend.

---

[Verginius Rufus]

Yes, it is unlikely the object was still around centuries after the sack of Jerusalem, when the Roman government began to favor the Catholic Church. Besides that, Rome was sacked by the Goths in 410 and by the Vandals in 455, so anything valuable may have been carted off on one of those occasions.

[Askel5]

=== Besides that, Rome was sacked by the Goths in 410 and by the Vandals in 455,

Evidently, the folks on the "antiquities" .edu chatboard tend toward blaming Vandals as well.

[rmlew]

Taxes, colonization, and the defilement of the Temple by Roman soldiers were pretty good reasons to rebel.
Herod Agrippa warned the Romans, but they were bent on supressing Judea.

[missyme]

Alouette,
It is so ironic how the re-building of the temple and a Messiah who will bring Peace to the world is the same as the christian theory that this will also happen but this "Messiah" will be the Anti-Christ in other words "Satan" that will be a wolf in sheep's clothing. Does this concern you? that you might be worshipping the "Devil" do you think you will be deceived should this event happen in your lifetime??

[Askel5]

=== The Messiah has to arrive first.

Now this I did not know and never would have guessed.

I had always been under the impression there were two messianic visions ... one riding an ass into Jerusalem and a second, more triumphant, return.

I was under the further misimpression that Jesus of Nazareth was born during a sort of "messianic" age ... wherein Jews were already expecting the Messiah (as they are now, I know).

But the Temple was intact back then and I can't imagine anyone dreamt it would be destroyed. Has that initial Messianic vision always been tied to the Temple in Jerusalem such that no one can conceive of the Messiah's coming without the Temple's being there?

If you've got some source to point me to, I'd be grateful, thanks.

[Askel5]

=== storage dungeons

You may not be writing a novel but I suspect you've got the wordsmithing ability and imagination to do just that! =)

[NYer]

Interesting that the rabbis would think the Vatican housed Roman loot! If anything, they should check with the Italian government. They are the descendants of the Romans, not the pope.

Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list

[Alouette]

There have been false and failed messiahs throughout history. There was a messianic fervor 10 years ago in a certain Hasidic group which caused a great deal of disappointment.

It is very easy for people to be deceived, that is why it is important to study scripture very carefully. A true prophet is one whose predictions come to pass.

[rmlew]

1. We fully expect a comming of the Messiah to bring war and then peace.
2. We don't worship the Messiah. We await his leadership.
The idea that he Messiah is divine is Christian, not Jewish.

[Ciexyz]

Are you going to see Mel Gibson's "Passion"?

I'll be there the weekend it opens!

[missyme]

Yes I do understand what you mean, regarding False Prophets
But what I am truly trying to understand repsectfully from you as observant to Judiasm is the Messiah that you believe will be coming for the first time..


My understanding is that a man who will bring Peace to Israel re-build the temple bring Peace to the Earth will be honored as the "Messiah by many. This in my beleif will be during the Tribulation. I guess what I am trying to understand from you is if you have any concern that you might be fooled by "Satan" is that a concern for you?

[Askel5]

=== 1. We fully expect a comming of the Messiah to bring war and then peace.
2. We don't worship the Messiah. We await his leadership.
The idea that he Messiah is divine is Christian, not Jewish.


Thank you for clearing up that misconception of mine as well.

[missyme]

The Christian idea is Jewish...As quoted by the Jewish Apostles

[missyme]

That is not my question:
Do you think you will be deceived by "Satan" A wolf in sheep's clothing.

That does everything you are expecting?

[TheAngryClam]

You sound like one of those kind who want Americans out of the Middle East.

[Askel5]

=== The Christian idea is Jewish...As quoted by the Jewish Apostles

That was part of my misunderstanding, I suppose ... that we'd inherited the Messianic visions -- the one riding an ass into Jerusalem and the "second coming" triumphal return -- from the Judaic tradition.