The Agenda of Islam - A War Between Civilizations

betar ^ | Wednesday 24th Dec 2003 | Professor Moshe Sharon

[swarthyguy]

Depends on what you think of Huntington's hypothesis.

Essentially I buy it. The hour is late and the sky is dark. America is hated. Can we turn the Titanic of islami hate around or are we just rearranging the deck chairs and squandering precious time and opportunity.

Good news is American troops are in Araby in case the Shiites or the Saudis or both hit the fan.

Perhaps the Clash can be averted. Splintering the muslims helps.

Softshoeing the Saudis, who are the richest slime in the world and pretend to be our friends, doesn't help at all in confronting jihad.

That's the contradiction in the administration's strategy.

And deflection from actual nationstates and ideologies such as Saudi and Pakistan is achieved by using the highly charged and emotional pc/agitprop tactics of sloganeering and name calling to achieve intimidation when any questioning of the official party line is ventured.

[risk]

Give us time, sir. We have never been conqured by these barbarians and we never will be. We do take our time when we launch into global warfare, however. Imagine how the Russians or the French felt about us in 1941?

[swarthyguy]

Oh, I agree absolutely.

Yamamoto aside, the Japanese had the stereotypical image of Americans as party animals too soft for extended war.

Those of us advocating Force Majeure for certain countries would like the multigenerational aspect of this cut short and to the quick, freeing our kids and grandkids from the burden of fighting this enemy, and letting us all return to our oblivious and carefree natural state of being.

[risk]

In the interest of civility to others and in honor of our commander in-chief, let me just say that we have not yet begun to fight. India may wonder at our resolve, and so may Michael Moore. But in a generation or less, this will be over one way or the other.

[swarthyguy]

Just Bumping for the thrill of it.

[ml/nj]

Great Britain is socialist

Figures compiled from government and academic sources show that 930,000 Muslims attend a place of worship at least once a week, compared with 916,000 Anglicans.

Muslim leaders said it was a landmark in the rise of Islam in Britain and that Muslims must receive a share of the Church of England’s privileged status.

(More at Muslims outpace Anglicans in UK)

Up theirs!

ML/NJ

[Happy2BMe]

"Muslim leaders said it was a landmark in the rise of Islam in Britain and that Muslims must receive a share of the Church of England’s privileged status."

Demographics Demographics - it's ALL about DEMOGRAPHICS . .

Demographics "There is a demographic catastrophe happening in Europe that nobody wants to talk about, that we daren’t bring up because we are so cagey about not offending people racially,” he said. “And rightly we should be. But there is a cultural thing as well. … By 2020, 50% of the children in Holland under the age of 18 will be of Muslim descent.” He even drew attention to the birth dearth in the West.

“And don’t forget, coupled with this there is this collapse of numbers,” he said. “Western Europeans are not having any babies. The population of Germany at the end of the century is going to be 56% of what it is now. The population of France, 52% of what it is now. The population of Italy is going to be down 7 million people.”

---

FROM JOSEPH FARAH'S G2 BULLETIN
Radical Islam's 'plan'
to take over America
Arab-American author outlines secret
20-year strategy to undermine country

---

Posted: August 4, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern

9. Accelerate Islamic demographic growth via:

• Massive immigration (100,000 annually since 1961).

• Use no birth control whatsoever – every baby of Muslim parents is automatically a Muslim and cannot choose another religion later.

• Muslim men must marry American women and Islamize them (10,000 annually). Then divorce them and remarry every five years – since one can't legally marry four at one time. This is a legal solution in America.

Omar Ahmad

Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR).

President & CEO of Silicon Expert Technologies, he is a Palestinian who grew up in a refugee camp in Jordan.  


" Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant...The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth,"
-Omar Ahmad


 Ibrahim Hooper
CAIR spokesperson


"I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future...But I'm not going to do anything violent to promote that.


"CAIR does not support these groups publicly."
(when asked about CAIR's record of supporting Hamas, Hizbullah and other official terrorist groups)

-Ibrahim Hooper

What they're saying about "Onward Muslim Soldiers" - An expose of militant Islam.

The FREEPERS Guide To Islamic Terror Websites - CYBERTERRORISM (And It's Sponsors)

Muslims in America

Num. of Muslims in the U.S.:		7  million
Num. of American Muslims associated with a mosque:		2  million
Num. of mosques in the U.S.:		1,209
% of regular mosque participants who are male:		75%
% of regular mosque participants who are African-American:		30%
% of regular mosque participants who are Arab:		25%

Source: "The Mosque in America: A National Portrait," a study conducted by the Council on American-Islamic Relations and the Hartford Institute for Religion Research
(April 26, 2001)

[Happy2BMe]

Islamic Infiltration
Furthermore, there is another fact that must be remembered. The Islamic world has not only the attitude of open war, but there's also war by infiltration.
One of the things which the western world is not paying enough attention to is the tremendous growth of Islamic power in the western world. What happened in America and the Twin Towers is not something that came from the outside. And if America doesn't wake up, one day the Americans will find themselves in a chemical war and most likely in an atomic war - inside the U.S.

ONWARD MUSLIM SOLDIERS BUMP!

[Dubya]

bump

[Luis Gonzalez]

You are the enemy, right along with Islamic extremists.

You will not be allowed to involve the 90% of the world's Muslims and Christians who haven't the slightest desire to involve themselves in a "war of religions" to turn this planet into a massive slaughterhouse of religious warfare.

You will be stopped from doing that, as Islamic extremist will be stopped from doing the same, you both have the same goal in mind.

I don't give a rat's ass about your "newcomer to this land" crap, I am on this land, and I have every right and privilege that you enjoy, the only exception being the fact that I am not allowed to be president. This land is my children's land, and I will protect them from the narrow point of view exhibited by you, regardless of who you yearn to engage in a war of religions, the only possible outcome of such a war being the situation we witness in Israel daily.

In order for good people to survive, extremist must not be allowed to run amok, you are every bit the extremist that they are.

Call me what you may, but you will be stopped, and common sense will prevail...in spite of your best efforts.

The remainder of your post is meaningless dribble and posturing lacking substance.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Those that didn't support him were not in active opposition for the most part. Those that did oppose him were ineffectual."

They died.

Your analogy then makes every single American complicit in the murder of one million unborn children every year, as those who do oppose the genocide, are ineffectually and unable to stop it.

"I think all Americans, with their melting-pot sensibilities, would love for you to produce these millions of Moslems vehemently condemning Moslem extremism, and terrorism."

If you hide from the truth, it can't find you. I found the pictures, letters, and press releases on Muslims around the world gathering in support of America in the aftermath of 9/11, you did not because you failed to look for them.

"Your really are going to have to explain the logical somersaults you use to arrive at the notion "that all Germans pursued absolute genocide" is required to prove the German state, as a world power, actively pursued the policy. It's a matter of history."

My point is exactly the opposite, my point being that because a portion of the German people pursued "absolute genocide", it did not mean that ALL German people pursues absolute genocide, anymore than all Muslims seek to murder non-Muslims.

"I like how Daniel Pipes put it; declaring a war on terrorism in response to 911 is like declaring a war on sneak-attacks in response to Pearl Harbor."

I've listened to Daniel Pipes, and he and I are in absolute agreement on one thing, the enemy is Islamic extremism, he uses the term Islamist to differentiate the extremists from the other 90%+ of Muslims around the world, and Pipes has no more of a clue on what course of action to take, other than the one being taken today, he also acknowledges that the problem is not Islam, but the way it is being interpreted by extremists currently.

From Pipes website:

"If the Koran causes terrorism, then how does one explain the 1960s, when militant Islamic violence barely existed? The Koran was the same text then as now. More broadly, over a period of 14 centuries, Muslims have been inspired by the Koran to act in ways aggressive and passive, pious and not, tolerant and not. Logic demands that one look elsewhere than an immutable text to account for such shifts"

That "elsewhere" takes you directly to the House of Saud, and the rise of Wahabbism.

Funny that you should offer up communism, a war that we won without having to frontally engage an enemy, but was defeated by the power of ideas.

Same situation here.

papertyger is a perfect name for you.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Marx defined communism, not socialism.

England's primary industries are socialized.

Healthcare, transportation, energy.

I find very few better examples of socialism around.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Islam" does indeed have an agenda -- it's spelled out in the Qu'ran (and yes I have read it myself)." -- SauronOfMordor

"reading the Koran is precisely the wrong way to go about understanding "what's happening in our world." That's because the Koran is:

• Profound. One cannot pick it up and understand its meaning when nearly every sentence is the subject of annotations, commentaries, glosses, and superglosses. Such a document requires intensive study of its context, development, and rival interpretations. The U.S. Constitution offers a good analogy: its Second Amendment consists of a just 27 words ("A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed") but it is the subject of numerous book-length studies. No one coming fresh to this sentence has any idea of its implications.

• Complex and contradictory. Contradictions in the text have been studied and reconciled over the centuries through extensive scholarly study. Some verses have been abrogated and replaced by others with contrary meanings. For example, verse 9:5 commands Muslims not to slay pagans until the sacred months have passed and verse 9:36 tells Muslims to fight pagans during those same months. The casual reader has no idea which of these is operational. (In fact, the latter is.)

• Static: An unchanging holy scripture cannot account for change over time. If the Koran causes terrorism, then how does one explain the 1960s, when militant Islamic violence barely existed? The Koran was the same text then as now. More broadly, over a period of 14 centuries, Muslims have been inspired by the Koran to act in ways aggressive and passive, pious and not, tolerant and not. Logic demands that one look elsewhere than an immutable text to account for such shifts.

• Partial: Holy books have vast importance but do not create the immediate context of action. Reading the Bible in isolation gives limited insight into the range of Jewish and Christian experiences over the millennia; likewise, Muslims have read the Koran differently over time. The admonishment for female modesty meant one thing to Egyptian feminists in the 1920s and another to their descendants today. Then, head coverings represented oppression and exclusion from public life. Today, in the words of a British newspaper headline, "Veiled is beautiful." Then, the head-covering signaled a woman not being a full human being; now, in the words of an editor at a fashion magazine, the head-covering "tells you, you're a woman. … You have to be treated as an independent mind." Reading the Koran in isolation misses this unpredictable evolution. In brief, the Koran is not a history book." -- Daniel Pipes

[risk]

Now I'm an extremist because I refuse to describe Islam as a religion of peace? Luis, just when would you defend this country, which you have presumably sworn to do?

"Extremists" have massacred our Marines in Lebanon. They've tried to sink our battleships. They've bombed our high rises and attacked them planes. They've struck our Pentagon. They've sworn to obtain weapons of mass destruction to kill you, your family, me, and anyone else who won't convert. Now you tell me I should be afraid of offending moderate Muslims? That's like saying I should worry about offending Lew Rockwell because I don't like David Duke. Or that I should worry about offending the Swiss because I'm eliminating German Nazis. Besides, where are the moderate Muslims in this story? I'll tell you where they are: blaming Israel. That's usually the first thing you'll hear from a "moderate" or a "secular" Arab or mideast immigrant. You see, Israel is so powerful, and so oppressive (trying to survive you see) that they manipulate all of these things across the entire planet against downtrodden mideasterners. That's moderate Islam.

In any case, I tell you some of those moderate Muslims may want to help the west more than you realize. Did you ever consider that possibility? We will defend ourselves, you, and them -- in the process. But I refuse to worry about offending someone along the way. That's for our President and our State Department to consider. You can worry about it, too. But I hope you don't keep thinking I'm the enemy, because we should be on the same side. Anyway, I'm just sitting in my living room coming to my own conclusions. It's our duly elected officials who get to set the policies, and we both agree that they are right.

[Luis Gonzalez]

The Evil Isn't Islam
by Daniel Pipes
New York Post
July 30, 2002

• German version of this item
• Spanish version of this item
• Russian version of this item
• Arabic version of this item

"ISLAM IS EVIL." That's the message a U.S. Secret Service agent illicitly left on an Islamic prayer calendar on July 18 as he was raiding a suspected al Qaeda operative in Dearborn, Mich.

His crude graffito sums up a point of view increasingly heard since 9/11 in the United States. It's also one that is troubling and wrong.

Here is the rub: It is a mistake to blame Islam (a religion 14 centuries old) for the evil that should be ascribed to militant Islam (a totalitarian ideology less than a century old). The terrorism of al Qaeda, Hamas, the Iranian government and other Islamists results from the ideas of such contemporary radicals as Osama bin Laden and Ayatollah Khomeini, not from the Koran.

To which you might respond: But bin Laden and Khomeini get their ideas from the Koran. And they are only continuing a pattern of Muslim aggression that is centuries old.

Not exactly. Let's look closer at both points:

* Aggressive Islam: The Koran and other authoritative Islamic scriptures do contain incitements against non-Muslims. The eminent historian Paul Johnson, for example, cites two Koranic verses: "Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers will you find the Jews and Pagans" (Sura 5, verse 85) and "Then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them. And seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them." (9:5).

* Aggressive Muslims: Fourteen centuries of Islam have witnessed a long history of Muslims engaged in jihad (holy war) to expand the area under Islamic rule, from the early conquests of the caliphs to what Samuel Huntington terms Islam's "bloody borders" today.

Yes, these points are accurate. But they are one side of the story.

* Mild Islam: Like other sacred writings, the Koran can be mined for quotes to support opposing arguments. In this case, Karen Armstrong, a bestselling apologist for Islam, quotes two gentler passages from the Koran: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2:256) and "O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another." (49:13).

* Mild Muslims: There have been occasions of Muslim moderation and tolerance, such as those in long-ago Sicily and Spain. And in one telling example, Mark R. Cohen notes that "The Jews of Islam, especially during the formative and classical centuries (up to the 13th century), experienced much less persecution than did the Jews of Christendom."

In other words, Islam's scriptures and history show variation.

At present, admittedly, it is hard to recall the positive side, at a moment when backwardness, resentment, extremism and violence prevail in so much of the Muslim world. But the present is not typical of Islam's long history; indeed, it may be the worst era in that entire history.

Things can get better. But it will not be easy. That requires that Muslims tackle the huge challenge of adapting their faith to the realities of modern life.

What does that mean in practical terms? Here are some examples:

Five hundred years ago, Jews, Christians and Muslims agreed that owning slaves was acceptable but paying interest on money was not. After bitter, protracted debates, Jews and Christians changed their minds. Today, no Jewish or Christian body endorses slavery or has religious qualms about paying reasonable interest.

Muslims, in contrast, still think the old way. Slavery still exists in a host of majority-Muslim countries (especially Sudan and Mauritania, also Saudi Arabia and Pakistan) and it is a taboo subject. To enable pious Muslims to avoid interest, an Islamic financial industry worth an estimated $150 billion has developed.

The challenge ahead is clear: Muslims must emulate their fellow monotheists by modernizing their religion with regard to slavery, interest and much else. No more fighting jihad to impose Muslim rule. No more endorsement of suicide terrorism. No more second-class citizenship for non-Muslims.

No more death penalty for adultery or "honor" killings of women. No more death sentences for blasphemy or apostasy.

Rather than rail on about Islam's alleged "evil," it behooves everyone - Muslim and non-Muslim alike - to help modernize this civilization.

That is the ultimate message of 9/11. It is much deeper and more ambitious than Western governments presently seem to realize.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Now I'm an extremist because I refuse to describe Islam as a religion of peace?"

Don't put words in my mouth, debate what I said, fabricating arguments is a sure sign of having "no game" left in you.

[risk]

You're the one who dismissed most of my earlier post. If you want to prove I'm an extremist, here's your chance. So far, I've used the word in the context of being extremely defensive of my people and our civilization. You think we can win by showing our consideration to moderate muslims. I say let them decide on their own. If they can't come to reasonable conclusions, then they aren't very moderate, are thy?

[Luis Gonzalez]

"You think we can win by showing our consideration to moderate muslims."

Once again, you attribute a stance to me that I've never taken...you're getting quite desperate here, if you are going to disagree with me, then at least have the courtesy of disagreeing with something that I have actually said.

It seems that Daniel Pipes disagrees with you as well.

[Happy2BMe]

Are either of you a practicing Muslim?