Spiegel: "There are lots of us too"

Der Spiegel ^ | March 9, 2004 | Frank Patalog

[Otto Krueger]

Below is my translation (rough, don't swear by it) of Der Spiegel's latest on-line article about the Freeping of their "poll" about President Bush.

I note, Vote, capitalized, refers to an online-vote conducted by a media site. There's a difference between it and the verb "to vote" or the noun, "vote."

I apologize for the length of the body of the comment. If I knew a way to hide the bulk of it, I would do so.

An earlier thread deteriorated into a shouting match including lots of ethnic slurs on both sides, IMO. Blah.

I think these folks are objectionable enough as sanctimonious, left-wing, anti-American creeps without bringing race into it.

Otto.

[Texas_Jarhead]

"Just ask yourself seriously this question," challenged reader Thomas Schröder. "How would you have reported it if Bush opponents had similarly rigged a survey on the White House or Fox's homepage?"

Happens all the time. So what.

I haven't been following this whole brouhaha but what is the crux of the problem here? That right-minded Internet users expressed their opinion by way of an online poll? Of was the poll mechanism itself susceptible to a user voting numerous times?

[Texas_Jarhead]

"The "attack" of the Freepers on the Spiegel-Online vote has, without exagerrating it, news value. But in the case of the Freepers, it's about an organized group that engages in a massive undertaking, whereever they can, to manipulate "expressions of public opinion" like Votes."

Are we not allowed to express our public opinion too? This reminds me of the BBC headline from the other day about an election in Europe that read "Conservatives seize power" [sorry but I forget the exact country].

[philetus]

OK. Now Der Spiegel is doing a poll on whether online polls are accurate.
Middle of page

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzkultur/0,1518,289701,00.html

Votes in the on-line journalism: Yes or no?
Votes are with Machern and readers like. In addition, they are susceptible to falsifications. Should a journalistic offer use the means of the Votes or not?



Yes: It belongs to the attractions of the InterNet for Medienmacher and readers that such communication forms are possible. Votes are "part OF the fun". One must make clear that they are not representative

No: Votes obtain the impression of respectable opinions, are however falsification-endangered. They do not have to look for anything in journalistic offers


Undecided, no opinion

[Otto Krueger]

You're welcome. I try to keep my German fresh by reading and translating, but the spoken language has gone all kaput. The man I honor, upper left.

[Eala]

Whatever it takes to piss off Der Spiegel has my blessing.

Der Spiegel should, um, look in the mirror.

[Otto Krueger]

Medienkritik, who started this all, has a translation of a FAZ-NET (online Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung) commentary about the Internet sputterings over the Spiegel survey.

The Conservative Click Guerilla This is serious, and the tone that Spiegel uses to report on it is serious… “Help drive the left crazy,” is what the blog entry on the site “Little Green Footballs” called it, and David Kaspar of Davids Medienkritik is pleased: “The Bush-haters at “Spiegel Online” will have a heart attack tomorrow morning.” The editorial staff of “Spiegel Online,” that spearhead of the German left, has yet to report any health problems. … There they are wrinkling their foreheads – and writing not only about dirty tricks such as replacing the placards of one party with another by night while disrupting their public rallies by day with boos. Instead – “and not any less significant” – the falsification of internet polls. Such activities are apparently called “freeping” in America and “Spiegel Online” reports on these subversive activities with great seriousness and detail. At the same time, “Spiegel Online” certainly could have won-over some American supporters with a “ha, ha, okay you guys got us!” for an answer and left it at that.

Reasonably enough. P.S. FAZ is pretty conservative by German standards. A finance-oriented publication, with a cooperative agreement with the Wall Street Journal last time I looked.

[sarasmom]

Garbage in, garbage out.
Basic immutable law of computing.
Traditional journalism is having a difficult time adjusting to the internet induced Age of Knowledge.
Reaching back in history, it seems somehow related to the invention of mechanical print technology.
The scribes all lost their lucrative jobs and carefully cultivated powerfull influences!
Well, except for those few scribes who could adapt and compete in a new environment.
Knowledge is power!
Gasp! Whatever will the "masses" (normal people) suddenly so empowered with such a dangerous thing as knowledge do with their new powers?

[hellinahandcart]

Thanks for translating and posting this.

A minority criticized the critics of those whose behavior first led to the Vote-manipulation. In fact, they argued, the action's legitimate; you can't pre-select your readership.

Not on the internet, you can't.

"Their voting didn't achieve the desired result," wrote one reader, Peter Kneer. "But to impute purposeful falsification by the voters is a sign of the leftist conception of democracy. A mature, engaged citizen is one who only carries his cross on the left."

Well, he's half-right. The desired result was definitely achieved, in my opinion. Kudos to those who participated! LOL

I'm a little distressed that I was left out of this "massive manipulation effort", though; I didn't even see the thread with the poll until after the German trolls had found it.

[familyop]

"The term was 'Amis,' which is really the equivalent of calling Germans, Krauts."

The word "Amis" is short for an expression that included a more vulgar word before "Amis" during WWII--"sch***s Amis." "Sentimentality" was seen as a weakness in Germany and Italy then.

[McGavin999]

Gee, are they aware that FreeRepublic has over 100,000 registered members and probably twice that amount as lurkers?

[rock58seg]

Amis is a phonetic spelling af armee. I derives from our troops being stationed there. The Question, "Sind Sie in Die Americanisher Armee?" Received the answer, "Ja ich bin Armee." Since almost all Americans the Germans met were in the Army, a slang shorthand grew in which all Americans were "Amis." Being of German descent myself, It never occured to me to think it any more derogatory than us calling them Dutchmen.

Anything can be an epithet when we try hard enough. So, "smile when you say that pardner!"

[McGavin999]

Did all the Germans with a sense of humor immigrate to the US? I have a number of German friends and they have a delightful sense of humor. The people reflected in these articles just don't seem to get it.

[Otto Krueger]

Spiegel p***** me off. Smug, anti-American, tendentious, and clueless. Did I mention smug? Really, more smug and lecturing than leftist.

They must have been outraged to have been screwed with.

As for "amis" and translations, I used "bloody Americans," 'cause it sounded foreign and only mildly insulting. Some things you can't translate exactly.

Anyway, hope to screw with 'em in the future.

[Redbob]

This "story" has been, if nothing else, a great source of tag-lines!

[MARTIAL MONK]

I only voted 20 times, the same as any Democrat. I think I've been disenfranchised.

[Chesterbelloc]

Has anyone told the widow Vivian Freep about this?

[Redbob]

"It's been fun, too bad they won't 'get it'. But they never do."

Of course they don't "get it" - they don't "Get" anything having to do with this democracy, individual responsibility, rights-of-man thing. While English-speaking philosophers were honing these concepts, Germans were perfecting (or at least thought they were perfecting) their mass-marching, goose-stepping drills.

And the goofballs at Der Spiegel are one short generation removed from that mind-set.

[Prince Charles]

First: The fact that there are political groups that take things like Votes so seriously that, in service of their goals, their will reach out around the world in order to "make public opinion."

Am I to understand that this teutonic trailer-trash author has only now realized that political agendas know no boundaries? Rubbish. One only needs to look in the direction of Moscow to recall the insidious and evil reach of the left in the 20th century.

[Bismarck]

By the way, there's a political forum in German called Democracy Online 2Day http://www.dol2day.com

For any of you who has a good understanding in German: Join that community for a while and you might find out what Germans think. Hint, they are VERY heterogeneous.

[Charles Henrickson]

Help to drive the German left one into the insanity.