V A N I T Y -- The reason those vets are behind sKerry

This is where I need help | 8/6/2004 | The pea-sized brain od Trident/Delta

[Trident/Delta]

I have been puzzled about the lack of conversation about the appearance of such opposing views between sKerry's crewmen, and the Swiftvets. It just stands to reason that one of the groups is just flat wrong (I didn't say lied). It intrigued me that so many, who are against sKerry, could be ofset by so few that support him. It is almost as if the media thinks that the public would buy off on a conspiracy of such a grand scale.

I got curious about the motivation of the supporters. While many have postulated about $$$ or some plum position in a sKerry adminitration, those just didn't seem to ring my bell.

I had to ask, what could it be that these men are willing to face up to such an onslaught. If the Swifties case is proven, they (the supporters) will be derided and embarrassed. So I felt that there had to be a more underlying reason.

I think I may have inadvertantly stumbled accross the reason.

While skimming posts on FR yesterday, I came across a link to a web page that was a blog or forum. The link was to a post on the blog (or forum) from someone whose screen namr was "River Rat". Now this was NOT of FR, it was a site that was linked from a thread on FR. This post (on the other board) stated that sKerry's crew got more decorations (I recall 2 other Bronze Stars) than any other boat. This poster said that these were given to the crew (reflected glory from sKerry's Silver Star).

So, if the reason for sKerry's comendation is bogus, then so was theirs!!! Since the Bronze is kinda important to aging warriors, I can see a scenario where some sKerry operative goes to these guys and says something to the effect "If Johnny goes down, you go down too!".

Now I may be off base here, but, if I have had bragging rights to something as prestigious as the Bronze Star, and it appears that I am about to be called a phony, you bet I would try, desparately, to preserve my "legacy" (sound familiar???). That being said, maybe one of the undercover pundits that monitor FR (you listening Hugh???? What about you Sean???) should focus on the "other" awards given in conjunction to the sKerry medals and see where that goes.

I wish I had bookmarked that damn link, but, I am certain that the more talented FREEPERS will find it. I think that it could be interesting.

[terilyn]

I so enjoy reading posts where people are really thinking. Noticing inconsistencies, pointing them out, and trying to come up with reasonable conclusions.

There are dozens of things like this if you listen to Rassman and the other pro Kerry vets. Not much of what he's said today matches up with either what the Swift Boat Vets are saying, what Kerry has said in the past, or what's been previously reported.

Last night Rassman he said he put Kerry in for the Silver Star. Now my understanding is Kerry got that for shooting the guy, not for saving Rassman. He got the Bronze Star for saving Rassman.

Curious.

Great post!

[taxesareforever]

Only their psychoanalysts know for sure.

And John Edwards as he does his "channeling" excercises.

[Dolphy]

I agree, I am also somewhat confused about how the libs, who are so anti-military, could embrace this the way they are.

I don't think they embrace it at all, it just gives them cover in their search for power and what they thought was a stark contract to Bush's military record. Kerry spent more time betraying and dishonoring his country and the military than he did in Viet Nam which probably helps the libs square his service.

To your original point, I have thought that liberals simply use the government to work out their own personal guilt or to right their karma. Their personal generosity and character rarely seems to match what they seek to take from or require of others.

[kabar]

Here's my take on Kerry's Band of Brothers. There is not doubt that Kerry, as part of his self-promotion, also rewarded those under him so they could vouch for his awards. There have also been some allegations that the tours of his crew were also curtailed through his inflence. However, Steve Gardner is an exception in terms of being bought off. He served two 12 month tours.

How does someone maintain a 35 year relationship with five or six guys you served with for about two months? Kerry skippered two boats for about two months each, which means 10 men served under him. I believe Kerry initiated and nurtured this relationship to further hhis political ambitions. You don't go to Vietnam with your journal, camera, and a desire to accumulate medals without thinking about the future. Kerry fancied himself another JFK, by self-admission, and liked the idea of having his own version of PT-109.

Although he failed in his first run for office, Kerry used his Band of Brothers as political props for over 25 years. He used his status as a decorated war hero to intimidate his political opponents who did not serve. On the other hand, he could use his role as an antiwar spokesman, which propelled him on the national stage at the age of 27.

As Kerry rose in prominence from Lt. Gov to Senator, the Band of Brothers went along with him to experience the rarified air of being associated with a celebrity and power broker. I am sure Kerry did favors for them, as he could as a prominent politician. He must have paid their way to accompany him during his campaigns and invited them to various functions over the years. It was good to have a US Senator as a friend and supporter, especially a very rich one after he married Teresa in 1995, just a year before his toughest reelection campaign. Who doesn't like Santa Claus?

Kerry didn't maintain that same kind of relationship with his peers (except Skip Barker) because they were not his subordinates and considered him an ineffectual jerk by and large.

Kerry's Band of Brothers are held together less by friendship and more by a mutually beneficial relationship, material and psychic. I would be interested to learn more about the Band of Brothers in terms of their military records and lives since they left the military. There is a story there for anyone who wants to check it out.

[ProudVet77]

"Last night Rassman he said he put Kerry in for the Silver Star."
I heard that too, figured I heard him wrong. Someone needs to run down Rassman's credentials as a Green Beret.
Also somthing I noticed today is that after training Kerry was sent to An Thoi with CD11. (I happen to be very familiar with the area) The U Minh forest was a major VC stronghold. After a week at An Thoi they send him back to Vung Tau and CD 13. Yet both of his medals read "while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN" blah blah blah.
Huh? There are several other inconsistances at:
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/service_timeline.html

[ozzymandus]

I agree. IMHO, kerry bought them off with undeserved medals, and now they're ashamed to admit it. Plus te full weight of the RAT goon squads is on them now.

[terilyn]

Thanks for that link. I'll read it carefully. I wish FOX posted transcripts. We need to nail Rassman down.

His story that he just happened to see the Brinkley book on Kerry and just "happened" to open it to the section on himself is ridiculous on it's face. He just happens to show up in IA as the Kerry campaign is in full implosion mode.

I'm not buying his story. He was sweating more than Al Gore drinking iced tea last night when Sean was questioning him.

People that are being truthful don't act the way he acted.

[reformedliberal]

Specifically, they got transferred out to non-combat zones.

Also, they are getting their 15 minutes of fame by association. Frankly, they are terrible at standing up to the former Swift Boat Commanders. They are average men who haven't accomplished all that much since Nam. They didn't expect to be criticized or have Kerry challenged.

I think protecting their own medals is a good point. Another thought: when a group of people have convinced themselves that something happened and they are then confronted by a larger group of people w/presence, authority and the habit of command who keep correcting their fantasy and substituting a truth that contradicts it, the ones caught in the fantasy are going to have their foundations shaken. It may even force them to really remember the past as it happened.

If one of the 2 former crewmates suddenly leaves the campaign because they are *tired* or *ill* or *want to spend time w/their grandbabies*, I'll suspect they began to remember the past as it really happened. Brainwashing can wear off.

WOW! You know: this is a movie plot!

[concerned about politics]

How does someone maintain a 35 year relationship

I hope I have this right, but the guy Kerry was suppose to have saved "from the enemy" said he hadn't heard from Kerry for 35 years until one day he called him. I saw him interviewed on TV.

Where did you hear he kept in touch with them? It seems as though Kerry would be "too good" for the unwashed left overs from his youth.

[gentlestrength]

When torture happened in Abu Girab, the distinction was made that it was a few soldiers, not all. It should follow, therefore, that say, 80 percent of VV vets are vociferous in that they didn't participate. It seems as if there is a collective silence and guilt, as if because they were in a unit where some did wrong things, and because they didn't report it, they are equally guilty. And it doesn't get talked about, because their silence over these years has been wrong.

sKerry actually admitted right away to the burning down of innocent villagers' houses. But he doesn't give names of those raping women and torturing. Yet he tries to sound morally on the high road by admitting to some attrocities, and then making "the war" what is evil, rather than SOME individual soldiers, including his evil self.

I would think others who are also guilty, who K knows are guilty, would support him now, as in a code of silence.

And others can't get harder on him, because he knows too much about their doings. I say, if you weren't courageous enough to do the right things back then, DO the right thing now, for the sake of the country: TELL what you know about Kerry, even though it may mean punishment for you now, because of your guilt. It would be COURAGEOUS and GOOD!!

[kabar]

I hope I have this right, but the guy Kerry was suppose to have saved "from the enemy" said he hadn't heard from Kerry for 35 years until one day he called him. I saw him interviewed on TV

You are correct. Rassman, a Green Beret and passenger on Kerry's boat, was not a crewman, i.e., one of the Band of Brothers. It would be interesting to learn the true circumstance of how they got together.

Where did you hear he kept in touch with them? It seems as though Kerry would be "too good" for the unwashed left overs from his youth

I remember reading it in the Boston Globe series on Kerry's life and elsewhere. Here is one report about them that seems to indicate that 1996 was the first real use of the swift boat crew, but Kerry used veterans in earlier campaigns

"For the band of brothers' dozen or so core members--including most of the two swift boat crews Kerry commanded in Vietnam--down time was hard to come by last week. Betting that his buddies' war stories will help shore up his national security credentials, Kerry enlisted them in a daily blitzkrieg of interviews, speeches, and photo ops. But while their appearance on the national stage may be new, the band of brothers has actually been 20 years in the making.

The seed for the concept was planted in 1984, during Kerry's first Senate bid, when his main primary rival, Rep. Jim Shannon, took him to task for protesting the Vietnam War. When Kerry demanded an apology, Shannon refused, saying, "That dog won't hunt." With a week to go before the primary, a group of Vietnam vets from Massachusetts barnstormed the state in Kerry's defense, helping him. He barely eked out the win--but he's been winning ever since.

All for one. Heirs to the so-called dog hunters, the band of brothers was born during Kerry's 1996 re-election bid, when he faced popular Massachusetts Gov. William Weld. A couple of weeks before Election Day, a Boston Globe columnist suggested that Kerry's role in a 1969 Vietnam firefight--for which he won the Silver Star--might have constituted a war crime. A Kerry friend tracked down five of his 1969 crewmates--none of whom had spoken to Kerry or to one another since Vietnam--and flew them to Boston. "John saved our lives, and we saved his," says former crewmate Drew Whitlow. "If you get one of us in trouble, we're going to come after you." It was just what Kerry needed. "These veterans beat back the charges," says Rob Gray, Weld's 1996 spokesman. "We couldn't change the subject back to what we wanted to talk about."

[reformedliberal]

I remember that interview from the primaries exactly as you do.

I don't think Kerry has had to use all these guys before. Maybe someone from MA can tell us if he campaigned as a vet there? I bet he had PIs out finding these people and sweet-talked them into a last *adventure*. Now the fun is turning sour.

How does a GB get onto a Naval Coastal Division? I am a dumb civilian, so it just sounded strange to me. Did Rassman have some sort of military specialty that was required and not supplied by the Navy?

Rassman looked ill last night while being refuted by the former commander. He kept saying:"Why make a big deal over something that happened 30 years ago." And he reiterated the day's talking point: the Navy gave him (F'n) those medals, so they must be legit.

I think I read that for that 1st PH, Kerry had to go up the chain of command to someone in Saigon to get it signed. He's always undertood how to pull strings.

[NordP]

I saw it! Wasn't our Pres and famous little Barney wonderful? It was fun to watch.

My Dachshund does exACTly the same thing Barney does. They could be such pals! James & Barney...fishin' buds.

The President is a good fisherman, and always the gentleman--making the host feel like the host is more skilled than he. What a class act!

[okie01]

[In 1996] A Kerry friend tracked down five of his 1969 crewmates--none of whom had spoken to Kerry or to one another since Vietnam--and flew them to Boston. "John saved our lives, and we saved his," says former crewmate Drew Whitlow. "If you get one of us in trouble, we're going to come after you." It was just what Kerry needed.

In 1996, supporting the OinC, who was an incumbent Senator, was harmless. If the facts got embroidered into a bit of a fantasy, it was all in the interest of getting the skipper elected.

Now, the stakes are a lot higher. But the crewmen, as well as the Senator, are invested in the fantasy, not the facts.

If this is the correct thesis, Kerry's crewmen bear close watching. They're unlikely to "turn state's evidence", but they might start refusing interviews and begin drifting away from the campaign.

They're not corrupt men, necessarily. They'll want to be able to live with themselves.

[AlienCrossfirePlayer]

On FNC Special Report (of Aug 4 Wed), Fred Barnes suggested that one side or the other was lying and much of the dispute could be resolved with research. I hope he takes his own assignment.

[Tacis]

Another possibility is that most of us exagerate our military experiences. I love listening to Brits. They'll give some tenuous credit to the Yanks or some other individual or unit and add, "Now, having said that...," take personal credit for winning WW II, the Falklands, Northern Ireland or whatever. Then, we have all the pretend SEALs.

Gigilo John became a celebrity. His lies about his service allowed all these other to integrate their lies with his. Who, after 25 years of marginal achievement, would question anythng? But now, after lying to their kids about how they won the war with Traitor John, some one says, "BS, that's not how it was!"

In terms of the lies men tell, military for exceeds sex or wealth. Who can dispute my stories about my near death experiences behind enemy lines? My wife will gig me if I mention the blonds and my ex-wife's lawyers will get me if I mention wealth. The pro-Kerry guys have just been caught up in the lies they've been telling for 25 years.

[I_dmc]

I would suspect that Kerry's boat shot anything that moved, to prevent anything that moved from shooting them. Thats what cowards do.

[ChEng]

Well said. Not unlike sport fans, "association" can define one's self image.

[I_dmc]

I happened to catch a cspan broadcast from DNC today. They were talking to young democrats, mentioned a strategy of "visiting message boards". I wonder if the RNC advises this to its volunteers?

[GretchenM]

That chap Rassman (sp?) who so strongly supports kerry, who was dumped overboard by kerry and for whom Kerry turned back, and whom kerry fished out of the water ... given all his other actions, I've wondered what would make jfk for once in his life act unselfishly, and risk his sense of security to do that. This brings me to the conclusion that all this support the paltry number of Swift Boat vets give could simply be because kerry, in his own sick little way, formed some kind of fraternal bond with Rassman and the other four, or however many, in the birds of a feather tradition.

By that I mean, simply, they could all be as weird as he is.