Isn't that special?
Posted on 08/26/2004 1:15:43 PM PDT by LadyLiberty86
Eagle Point vet who was there backs Kerry’s assertion that bullets were flying the day he won two medals on a river in Vietnam
By PAUL FATTIG
Robert E. Lambert doesn’t plan to vote for John Kerry.
But the Eagle Point man challenges claims by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that there was no enemy fire aimed at the five swift boats, including the one commanded by Kerry, on March 13, 1969 on the Bay Hap River in the southern tip of what was then South Vietnam.
Lambert, now 64, was a crew member on swift boat PCF-51 that day. The boat was commanded by Navy Lt. Larry Thurlow, a now-retired officer who questions why Kerry was awarded a Bronze star for bravery and a third Purple Heart for the March 13 incident.
"He and another officer now say we weren’t under fire at that time," Lambert said Wednesday afternoon. "Well, I sure was under the impression we were."
Lambert’s Bronze Star medal citation for the incident praises his courage under fire in the aftermath of a mine explosion that rocked another swift boat on that day 35 years ago.
"Anytime you are blown out of the water like that, they always follow that up with small arms fire," he said.
Lambert contacted the Mail Tribune after reading a lengthy article from the Washington Post examining the controversy. That article, carried in the Tribune, indicated that Lambert was a witness to the event but declined to comment.
Although noting he was never contacted by the Post, Lambert stressed that he believes the swift boat controversy has no place in the presidential election.
"This is being blown out of proportion," he said. "It’s absolutely unnecessary and irrelevant, as far as I’m concerned. All of this is nothing but a distraction. It doesn’t have anything to do with what is going on today."
A registered independent, Lambert said the presidential debate ought to be on the future, not the past.
"They should be focused on our exit strategy from Iraq," he said.
Lambert does take issue with Kerry’s opposition to the Vietnam War once he returned to the states.
"That was absolutely reprehensible but, there again, I’m career military," said Lambert who retired from the Navy as a chief petty officer after 22 years of service.
Nor does he have much time for the debate over who wrote the medal citations. Thurlow says his citation for a Bronze Star, which states the boats were being fired upon, was based on an initial report written by Kerry.
Lambert doesn’t know who wrote the documents.
"They took what everybody said after they got in, piled it altogether and shipped it off and somebody wrote that, either at the division level, squadron level or commander of naval forces, Vietnam level," Lambert said. "They decided what kind of medal was going to be put on it.
"Mine was for pulling Lt. Thurlow out of the river while we were under fire," he said.
Lambert, whose stout arms sport tattoos he picked up in the Navy, was already an "old salt" by 1969. He had joined the Navy right after graduating in 1957 from high in Chino, Calif.
Altogether, he would serve three tours in Vietnam, including a year on a mine sweeper.
In 1969, he was on his second swift boat tour. Among his duties, he helped train the officers in charge of the swift boats. He did not train Kerry.
"When they brought a new crew into country, they broke the crew apart, put each man on a different boat," he said. "Even though I was only a petty officer first class, I trained the officer in charge. When we all decided the officer and crew was ready, we put them back together and gave them a boat."
Lambert has a photo album of swift boats, including several shots of Kerry’s PCF-94, although he doesn’t recall ever having met Kerry. One of his photographs of Kerry’s boat was taken on the morning of March 13, 1969, he added.
He flipped to a photograph of a bullet hole in the side of his swift boat — PCF-51.
"That’s the bullet hole they keep talking about that they got the day before in the 51 boat — that was my purple heart," he said, noting he was hit on the upper left arm.
"When those bullets hit that aluminum, it was like hitting glass," he added. "There was shrapnel everywhere."
His photographs include swift boats riddled from AK-47 rifle rounds and larger holes from rocket blasts.
Lambert said that while he disagrees with Thurlow over whether they were being fired at that day, he and the crew liked and respected him.
"He was an excellent officer," he said. "The man was absolutely professional all the way. I would have went anywhere with him, he was that good.
"But I can understand why Thurlow doesn’t like Kerry — these people did a year in Vietnam, not four months," he said later.
The five swift boats were operating off U.S. Coast Guard cutters farther out in the bay on March 13. The swift boats had dropped off a load of Chinese mercenaries and American Special Forces. The mission of the ground forces was to push the enemy out of the jungle and onto the beach, where the swift boat crews were ready to pounce with their .50-caliber machine guns and other weapons.
According to Kerry’s Bronze Star citation, he was awarded the medal for rescuing Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who had been blown off his swift boat. Rassmann, who lives in Florence, has repeatedly stated the boats were under fire.
"We were done with our OPs and on the way back out to sea," Lambert recalled. "We were exiting the river. Kerry’s boat went through, then the 43 boat."
Then PCF-3 hit a mine.
"The mine was right underneath it, just lifted it right out of the water," he said.
The six-member crew was stunned and shaken by the blast; the boat was running free.
"It was running wide open — we were all running wide open, trying to get out of there," he said.
But while PCF-3 was running at full throttle, there was no one at the helm.
Thurlow pulled his boat up along the PCF-3 boat and told Lambert to take control of the PCF-51 boat, Lambert said.
"Everybody was shooting back," he said. "After my boat officer (Thurlow) jumped on the 3 boat, he was looking at people (the crew). His boat hit a sandbar and he was knocked overboard. So we went in and got him out."
Lambert, who reached down to help Thurlow aboard, was awarded the Bronze Star for his "courage under fire," according to his citation.
"We went right back to the 3 boat and he (Thurlow) went back on the boat," he said. "We got the 3 boat off the sandbar, got a boat tied to each side of it and down the river we went."
Reach reporter Paul Fattig at 776-4496 or e-mail him at pfattig@mailtribune.com
Isn't that special?
It would go away if John Fraud Kerry would sign SF-180 and release his military personnel record to the public.
Catnip 'n' ozone time!
She maybe a troll. But this article isnt that bad really, its not damning and it really doesnt disprove anything. The man seems to have the utmost respect for Thurlow and not so much for Kerry, thats all I needed to read.
She maybe a troll. But this article isnt that bad really, its not damning and it really doesnt disprove anything. The man seems to have the utmost respect for Thurlow and not so much for Kerry, thats all I needed to read.
"She" signed on today, immediately posted an article calling the Swifties liars, and isn't replying. "She's" a bit more sophisticated than the usual vermin that bother us here, but that pattern says troll.
bump TO SUPPORT THE NEW SWIFT VETS AD AND GEORGE BUSH... http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/gardner2.mpg
I am definitely NOT a troll. I will vote for Bush. I just thought that this article offered a relatively unbiased view of the disputed incident.
You replied, good thing they would have called you on it.
I personally dont know the big deal about this article it doesnt seem to me to be calling swifties liars.
I'm still trying to figure out how they can pull a boat off a sandbar, rig a tow line, and toe it out to sea while under fire.
Neat trick.
Your opinion is needed!
I am sorry, I dont see it that way. This article is not calling swifties liars, it is providing Lamberts point of view of the events.
He's saying: Since they always did, they must have that day also.
That's not a very good basis to dispute the accounts of multiple other witnesses. If he was in the pilot house for most of the incident, his observation of it would have been limited as to whether the firing was incoming or outgoing.
The damage and repair reports filed after the incident should show the bullet holes, if there were any.
It's the nicest possible way, but it's still impugning their veracity.
He did nothing wrong in the incident and he has a medal at stake in the official story. I note that he has nothing to say about being under fire except that it was expected in an ambush situation.
Lambert is the official listed witness for this event.
This thread coud do with an addition to the title. Folks have been wondering for days who Lambert was, and here he is.
It may be. But the man still reserves the right to express his version of events right? I came away from the article with the same feeling going in, the facts are still under dispute. Even Mr. Lamberts own words makes it sound like even he is quite sure what happened, "he was under the impression" and other stuff.
Be my guest
Oh By the Way Welcome newbie, if troll you be than Zot you we will. If troll you arent than enjoy your stay.
Please see my post 15. If the positions of Lambert and the Swifties were reversed this piece of unfounded speculation would never see the light of day.
I have no doubt Lambert is telling the truth as he knows it. He's being used to attack the Swifties.
Lambert is the official listed witness for this event.
Good catch on that.
If his medal award was based on having been under fire at the time, he's got to say that they were.
Lambert has a vested interest in maintaining the under fire contention. How does he answer the fact that the boats stayed in place for 60 to 90 minutes? I think the confusion lies in the suppression fire. Coupled with the mine explosion, there was confusion no doubt.
Some other points: Lambert does not state definately in this article that there was fire - only that it was expected. Also, his story about Thurlow going on the the #3 backs up the account told in Chapter 5 of "Unfit for Command".
4 people or 200 plus. Who do you believe. If Kerry is the honest one, why does he keep backing down. Why doesn't he sue the SBVfT?
Because he is lying stupid. He is wanting to sue everyone but the SBVfT.
This argument about medals is so, like, yesterday.
Weasel Words
Ahhh ... here's Lambert ... bumping, while reading his comments
He doesn't HAVE to. Other SwiftVets have said their medals were based on Kerry's writups, and contain things they don't remember.
Now about the enemy fire: The most consistent story, across all witnesses, is that a mine went off under PCF 3, followed almost immediately by supressing fire from the Swiftboat's guns. Reasonable estimate for this firing is about 40 seconds, which is consistent with the ammo usage.
Forty seconds is a long time when you think you might die. I witnessed a traffic accident once, and what seemed like ten seconds actually took about one.
So during all this firing, Kerry takes off, Rassmann is flipped off Kerry's boat, the other boats move in to help #3. No one except the gunners are really in a position to know whether there was return fire. And they stopped almost immediately. After this incident, the total bullet hole count on the five boats was three , and no one will ever know when those occurred. But it seems low if there was a firefight.
Can anyone see just what Lambert did that rose to the level of a Bronze Star being awarded? I don't, but I'll admit that I may have missed something significant. He may be entirely deserving of his award.
I really hate this crap but, if the truth of the situation is ugly, so be it. It's still the truth.
Boat jammed up on a sand bar after a command det mine...perfect place to open up with light weapons...the VC didnt have enough forces or weapons or manpower in the ambush site or were simply unwilling to take on that many swift boats and that much firepower...and air or arty support...they blew the mine and boogied...guerrilla style...
imo
The article also mentions that he perceived that there had been enemy fire, but that impression could be based on his citation, which probably mentions enemy fire due to Kerry's after action report.
My guess is this man was enlisted, and not an officer, and like the Navy, he trusted the officers to report the facts. If his citation says there was enemy fire, there must've been enemy fire, and the suppression fire from the boat guns would have drowned out any noise made by enemy fire, so he can't say there wasn't enemy fire.
His story has definitely been slightly slanted to imply that there was enemy fire.
Is his pension at risk if he proven to have falsified an eyewitness report that resulting in the improvident award of a military honor? Actually, more than one award. His Bronze is at risk in the mix as well. I can understand why he would prefer to keep quiet, either way, but putting a pension at risk, career military and all, is REAL pressure.
The article also mentions that he perceived that there had been enemy fire, but that impression could be based on his citation, which probably mentions enemy fire due to Kerry's after action report.
Probably not after 30+ years.
I think he is being sarcastic.
A little more detail for the Bronze Star incident.
Lambert, in this article, does not talk about the conditions when Kerry picked up Rassmann. I'm going to read again, to see whether he mentions a second mine, or fire from the bank on the right side of the river.
I disagree. I think he does. His award citation would include similar language regarding enemy fire as kerry's and Thurlow's did.
The only Swiftee that I've seen dispute his own citation is Thurlow. He received his Bronze Star quite a while after the incident. He has said that, if his award was based on enemy fire, it is fraudulent and he would return it.
Can you receive a bronze star without enemy fire?
"He and another officer now say we weren’t under fire at that time," Lambert said Wednesday afternoon. "Well, I sure was under the impression we were."
"Anytime you are blown out of the water like that, they always follow that up with small arms fire," he said.
Chief Lambert tells us what it's like when bullets hit a Swift Boat -- "shrapnel everywhere." He also informs us he was under the impression they were under fire and that the enemy always followed up with small arms fire. Now those VC must have been very poor shots that day not to hit any of the boats, sending "shrapnel everywhere" - it has been reported there were no bullet holes from this incident, and no wounded other than those wounded by the mine. They were very fortunate indeed that the enemy fire missed all of the personnel - on the boats and in the water, and missed all five boats, including the one stuck on a sand bar.
From the Spot Report of March 13, 1969, the Wounded in Action did not include any for bullets or shrapnel, except for Kerry who got his "shrapnel" from a rice cache/hand grenade incident on land earlier in the day.
There were four navy personnel MEDEVAC'd with head and back injuries and three (including Kerry) treated for minor injuries of scrapes and contusions and returned to duty.
Yes.
Unless the mine counts as enemy action for the award, though, it couldn't include the "V" (for valor) device. Adding that device to an award requires enemy action which is what distinguishes it from a non-combat award of the same medal.
Sorry, I don't know how many other medals have this provision but the Bronze Star definitely does.
Good to know
Hm, I smelled faint ozone at first, but the newbie did reply and seems to be on the level.
I suggest we check fire.
Bump
I agree.
Chinese Mercenaries???
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.