Posted on 08/31/2004 3:14:06 PM PDT by TERMINATTOR
A year ago, this organization warned that the Bush Administration was planning to do something unthinkable - they were seriously considering signing a pact with Mexico that would give any Mexican who had worked in the U.S., including illegal aliens, full U.S. Social Security benefits, paid out of your Social Security Trust Fund!
It seemed so far fetched, we had trouble convincing the Congress that it could happen. A White House spokesman denied our claim that it was on a fast track, stating the ongoing discussions for Totalization were just informal and preliminary.
But we knew better. We had obtained correspondence proving it was on a fast track and had seen plans for erecting a huge new building at the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City just to deal with the swarms of people anticipated to sign-up for this raid on our Social Security Trust Fund.
Well, it was on fast track, just as we said it was and a few weeks ago, the President signed the Totalization Treaty with Mexico and unless you and I can persuade the Congress to stop it, millions of Mexicans, including illegal aliens, will soon be living it up on your Social Security benefits!
The timing for repealing this outrageous treaty couldn't be worse. The few days we have to repeal this treaty are the same few days preceding the November election, when every Congressmen is campaigning hard for reelection and the Congress is seldom in session. In short, it was a very underhanded way to sneak a terrible treaty past the Congress.
So please click here to jump to our Congressional Action page and send an email to your representative TODAY!
Yes, that's also my understanding of the agreement, that the spouse (already here illegally) of a *legal* Mexican worker here in the U.S. is now eligible for pro-rated SS benefits based upon the legal worker's time here.
Spouse here illegally + actual worker here *legally* = Authorized benficiary.
Frankly, I don't see why that concession was made in the totalization treaty. Why reward illegally-immigrated spouses?
5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires
I'm afraid you still don't get it.
Rereading the paragraph below, it is clear that the non-citizen would be eligible to receive benefits "even on unauthorized work" which is a euphemism for "illegal alien working in the US without authorization".
"For example, a non-citizen retired or disabled worker may receive payments outside the United States (including benefits based on unauthorized work in the United States) if he/she is a citizen of a country that has a social insurance system that pays benefits to eligible U.S. citizens residing outside that country, which Mexico does."
So, not only would the spouse and children of the illegal alien be eligible, but so would the illegal alien himself.
This proposal is a direct assault on the US taxpayer which will force us to fund Mexican national citizens.
Now, I pinged you on another thread (Nine unauthorized workers busted at defense plant) that discussed a raid ICE conducted to arrest "unauthorized workers" at a defense plant and the ICE agent's usage of the term, "unauthorized worker" is unambiguous.
It means "illegal alien working in the US without authorization".
Which is the same thing it means in the Totalization with Mexico proposal.
Not only that, but the illegal alien only has to work for 6 consecutive quarters, then he, his spouse and his children become eligible to receive SSI benefits.
*FOREVER*.
*WHILE LIVING IN MEXICO*!
No, Social Security doesn't "authorize" retirement payments for illegal work! When the Social Security Admin refers to "unauthorized" work or time, it is talking about pre-treaty efforts by *legal* workers that didn't qualify under the old rules for pension credit.
5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires
Bump
I agree with your take on this article. There is only one correction and I almost hate to tell you. The 6 quarters is 18 months or 1 and 1/2 years not 3 years.
One of the main problems with this agreement with Mexico is that our government is only estimating 47000 Mexican workers. The government doesn't seem to have a clue of the cost of such a program.
This looks like a problem of outsourcing. The company that hires Americans to work in foreign lands should foot the bill for the charge of ss to that country. It should not be the American taxpayer who foots the bill for large corporations. The only other way that I can imagine 3000 US workers in Mexico is American college professors in Mexico. Otherwise, I can't even begin to think of jobs in Mexico for Americans.
Oil exploration and avocado farm corps. Retirement communities (i.e. selling real estate) for expats. Tourism. Cement. Cars. IT.
5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires
Close the immigration floodgates to third world aliens NOW!!
In the mean time, arm yourselves and your loved ones and prepare them for the worst.
Oil exploration is with Pemex a state owned company. True, they may hire corporations and Americans may work there for an American company. Avocado farms corporations need Americans in Mexico for what? Retirement communities may need an interpreter but that would be all. Mexico knows how to sell real estate to Americans and believe it or not many of those Mexican speak English. Tourism, Mexico handles this. Cement? Any ads in the Birmingham News for cement workers in Mexico? Cars, most of the car manufacturers are not Mexican. The car companies are owned by the US, Japan, Germany, ect. IT? name a Mexican company that is hiring individual Americans.
Most of the plants in Mexico are American or other foreign corporations. The reason given by most arguing on the free trade threads is the taxes in the US in the fact that it is cheaper to do business in Mexico because of US taxes. Now these same corporations want Americans to pay for taxes imposed by Mexico. Do you think that is right?
I live on the border and I don't see ads in our newspapers for American help in Mexico. Can you show some links to the newspapers in Alabama?
Do you have a source for this?
Thanks. Much worse, but thanks.
One of the main problems with this agreement with Mexico is that our government is only estimating 47000 Mexican workers. The government doesn't seem to have a clue of the cost of such a program.
Reading the GAO document itself, reveals the following estimation about the potential costs:
SOCIAL SECURITY: Proposed Totalization Agreement with Mexico Presents Unique Challenges (That's an understatement)
Finally, the cost of a totalization agreement with Mexico is highly uncertain. SSA’s actuarial estimate states that the cost of a Mexican agreement would be $78 million in the first year and would grow to $650 million by 2050. The estimate assumes the initial number of newly eligible Mexican beneficiaries is equivalent to the 50,000 beneficiaries living in Mexico today and would grow sixfold over time. However, this proxy figure does not directly consider the estimated millions of current and former unauthorized workers and family members from Mexico and appears small in comparison with those estimates. Although the actuarial estimate indicates that the agreement would not generate a measurable impact on the trust funds, an increase of more than 25 percent in the estimate of initial, new beneficiaries would generate a measurable impact. For prior agreements, error rates associated with estimating the expected number of new beneficiaries have frequently exceeded 25 percent. Because of the significant number of unauthorized Mexican workers in the United States, the estimated cost of the proposed totalization agreement is even more uncertain than for the prior agreements.
...
To qualify for totalized U.S. social security benefits, a worker must have at least 6 but no more than 39 U.S. coverage credits. Benefit amounts are based on the portion of time a foreign citizen worked in the United States and, thus, are almost always lower than full social security benefits. The average monthly, totalized social security benefit at the end of 2001 was $162, compared with the average nontotalized monthly social security benefit of $825. In 2001, SSA paid about $173 million under totalization agreements to about 89,000 persons, including their dependents.
So, in reality SSA does not currently pay 50,000 non-citizens. It pays 89,000.
And, contrary to what Southack assserts, Social Security benefits are paid to illegal aliens for work performed in the US when unauthorized. Or, to be more precise, while an illegal alien.
Under U.S. law, immigrants may not work in the United States unless specifically authorized. Nevertheless, immigrants often do work without authorization and pay social security taxes. Under the Social Security Act, all earnings from covered employment in the United States count towards earning social security benefits, regardless of the lawful presence of the worker, his or her citizenship status, or country of residence. Immigrants become entitled to benefits from unauthorized work if they can prove that the earnings and related contributions belong to them. However, they cannot collect such benefits unless they are either legally present in the United States or living in a country where SSA is authorized to pay them their benefits. Mexico is such a country.
Seems pretty cut and dried to me.
The term, "unauthorized worker" is the same as illegal alien and US taxpayer dollars will be paid to literally millions of newly eligible Mexican illegal aliens under this Totalization Agreement with Mexico..
Cortesía de la Administración de Jorge Arbusto.
There was no totalization treaty with Mexico in 2001. Those 89,000 legal foreign workers in the U.S. were from countries *other* than Mexico.
The new Totalization treaty with Mexico, per Post #3 on this thread, will impact 47,000 legal Mexican's in the U.S. and 3,000 legal Americans working in Mexico, for an additional 50,000 people. That's where the 50,000 number originates.
5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires
Only if you believe the fairy tale that illegal aliens are dutifully reporting their wages and employers to the IRS and SSA, are getting paid above-board, and are having Social Security taxes deducted from their paychecks.
5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires
No, no, and no. Per your own posts above, which you've already seem to have forgotten, the new Totalization treaty only applies to 50,000 new people, in total, over all of the next 5 years.
That's an average of 10,000 people per year. If that was the limit and full scope/scale of our entire illegal immigration problem, no one would even care.
But 50,000 does not compare to our 8 million illegal aliens.
Further, you seem to have difficulty accepting that 3,000 of those 50,000 new workers are *Americans* legally working in Mexico.
Moreover, you are deliberately obfuscating the difference between eliminating a double-tax, which is all that the Totalization Treaty does, from that of enlarging Social Security.
Yes, this treaty enlarges Social Security, but by only 10,000 legal workers per year...not by "literally millions" of illegal workers...and that tiny "enlargement" of SS is little more than a bookkeeping change that is needed in order to eliminate Mexico's double-tax on American workers in Mexico and on Mexican workers in the U.S.
5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires
Your post #3 is a press release which came from the SSA itself. The GAO report which analyzes the agreement describes the problems with the SSA conclusions.
In the GAO report, the SSA number of 50,000 being bandied about does not include the millions of illegal aliens already here who have become eligible under the terms of the agreement.
I quote:
"Finally, the cost of a totalization agreement with Mexico is highly uncertain. SSA’s actuarial estimate states that the cost of a Mexican agreement would be $78 million in the first year and would grow to $650 million by 2050. The estimate assumes the initial number of newly eligible Mexican beneficiaries is equivalent to the 50,000 beneficiaries living in Mexico today and would grow sixfold over time. However, this proxy figure does not directly consider the estimated millions of current and former unauthorized workers and family members from Mexico and appears small in comparison with those estimates. Although the actuarial estimate indicates that the agreement would not generate a measurable impact on the trust funds, an increase of more than 25 percent in the estimate of initial, new beneficiaries would generate a measurable impact. For prior agreements, error rates associated with estimating the expected number of new beneficiaries have frequently exceeded 25 percent. Because of the significant number of unauthorized Mexican workers in the United States, the estimated cost of the proposed totalization agreement is even more uncertain than for the prior agreements."
It doesn't matter what I believe.
What matters is the details of this agreement.
The fact of the matter is that this agreement will allow billions of taxpayer dollars to be dispersed to millions if Mexican illegal aliens.
For argument's sake, lets just pretend that you are absolutely correct above. If so, the easy way to handle cutting off all illegal immigration (that's economically driven, at least), is to say that any illegal alien who applies for SS has to identify his current and former employers in the U.S.
Followed by having both the IRS and SSA immediately investigate said employer for failure to withhold and pay income and social security taxes; including holding said emplyers financially responsible.
In effect, every illegal applicant for SS benefits would become a snitch, by default, against their illegal employers. It would strike fear into such employers. That fear of employing illegals and then getting held responsible for back taxes would frighten away the vast majority of future potential employers, too. It would make NannyGate pale in comparison.
In other words, if what you are saying is true, then we've just scored an enormous victory against illegal immigration by using SS benefits as a lure and as a bribe to get snitches to rat out illegal employers.
5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires
Not going to happen. It's not part of their agenda, not part of the plan.
To bad government jobs, with their nice paychecks, benefits and fantastic pensions are not taken by illegals.
If that were the case, they shut down the border tomorrow.
You will be forced to pay for this government approved chaos.
You said that the SSA does not pay money to illegal aliens and I've shown that you were wrong, yet you did not acknowledge your error.
Now you're saying that this agreement will prevent the millions of Mexican illegals already here and at home in Mexico from applying for and receiving benefits despite their immigration status, yet have provided no documentary evidence to support your assertions.
The GAO analysis I've provided shows that this is the case. Mexican illegal aliens are eligible under this agreement to receive SSA retirement and disability benefits.
Here is a letter from James Sensenbrenner and John Hostettler to SSA commissioner Barnhart:
http://www.house.gov/judiciary/barnhart072304.pdf
..."Congress designed section 211 of SSPA to prevent – in most cases – individuals from receiving Social Security retirement or disability benefits on the basis of work illegally performed by aliens in the United States. The Senate Finance Committee’s Report, filed with the legislation, stated (regarding section 211) that “[i]ndividuals who were never legally permitted to work in the United States should not be able to collect Social Security benefits on the basis of their illegal earnings. The Social Security program should not reward those who violate our immigration laws.”1 The Social Security Trust Fund will face enough challenges to its solvency in future decades without being dissipated by payments based on work performed illegally in the United States. Additionally, there is no greater magnet for illegal immigration to the U.S. than the availability of jobs, and allowing illegal work to qualify for Social Security retirement and disability benefits only adds to the allure of such work and our difficulty in controlling the Nation’s borders...."
..."On June 29, 2004, you and Mexican Social Security Institute Director Santiago Levy signed a Totalization Agreement in Guadalajara, Mexico. We have seen an earlier draft of this agreement that omits any mention or discussion of segregating earnings from Mexican or American wage earners working legally versus those working illegally. It is extremely important that the Totalization Agreement with Mexico be amended to incorporate language that addresses section 211's prohibition, so that there will be no misunderstanding with this important neighbor, and so that Social Security benefits, even on a pro-rata basis, are not provided in violation of federal law..."
Do you have any documents (other than a press release from the SSA) which show that the House Judiciary Committee Chairman's and Subcommittee Chairman's and GAO conclusions are incorrect or that the GAO analysis is inaccurate?
c#137
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.