Posted on 12/10/2004 7:08:12 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo
NEW YORK -- A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God -- more or less -- based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.
At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.
(Excerpt) Read more at nynewsday.com ...
Whoa. Your question makes an assumption that is not true. I said I didn't think God sends humans to Hell forever. That's not quite the same as not believing in God.
and find it fun to try and point out what you think are inconsistencies about Christianity ?
I raised the question about the Khmer Rouge and their victims in response to post #335:
Regardless, you will come before him and as I stated earlier if you didn't accept Christ it will not be a happy time for you. Christians can be arrogant as we are right! I will pray for you.
That didn't sound like it was meant very kindly, so I presented the poster with a real life example of what his beliefs might entail. And yes, the Khmer Rouge question does seem to give people trouble.
So when I happen to see a poster play the Hell card, I'm going to play the Khmer card and folks will just have to deal with it or ignore my posts.
Or do you think God exists but would not have any requirements regarding heaven and all are welcome ? Or something else entirely ?
I guess I could be called a Deist. I don't know the nature of God or the afterlife, but I think both exist. I see no reason for an all poweful and loving God to create beings and allow them to be tortured forever.
My question made no assumptions. It was merely asking for clarification
I raised the question about the Khmer Rouge and their victims in response to post #335:
And you ignore the answers that no one is worthy to be saved.
That didn't sound like it was meant very kindly, so I presented the poster with a real life example of what his beliefs might entail. And yes, the Khmer Rouge question does seem to give people trouble.
I can see where it troubles nonbelievers who don't understand election.
So when I happen to see a poster play the Hell card, I'm going to play the Khmer card and folks will just have to deal with it or ignore my posts.
Thats fine, but you ignore the many arguments that its no problem for Judaism or Christianity. You act like theologians never considered what you raise as an issue. Its actually a rather childish objection that is brought up by the average Sunday school kid in one form or another. It is not unique. It is usually described as "Why do bad things happen to good people ?". It isn't a logical reason to dismiss the existence of God or Christianity. If it was, Christianity would have been dismissed 1,970 years ago.
I guess I could be called a Deist. I don't know the nature of God or the afterlife, but I think both exist.
How do you know God exists? more importantly, how do you know there is an afterlife. This was no evident to Hebrews and was a fairly new revelation. Its odd that you except as true part of the revelation of the Gospel and reject the rest. Very odd.
I see no reason for an all powerfully and loving God to create beings and allow them to be tortured forever.
I agree. It would be torture to exist forever with a God that one doesn't want to be obedient to. It would be like having the worst college roommate ever for eternity. Death would be preferable.
An observation. You refer to God as a loving God often. This surprised me because a deist would not ascribe such characteristics to God. Do you figure that a God could not be a loving God because he allows some to have eternal life but not everyone ?
I guess you would part ways with Judaism and Christianity at the moment Adam sinned and God presented the consequences, namely death to Adam. Your idea of a loving God would have been to accept that Adam sinned and give him a pass and just skip this whole earth thing. It is an appealing thought. The only problem I have is the chaos that would ensue in heaven where eternal beings filled with sin would make our earthly sinful lives look idyllic. Heaven would become hell.
1. Those who die as infants or are severely mentally deficient.
*Catholics believe that they have inherited sin from Adam and will spend eternity in a state called limbo ("the edge"), where they lack the joys of Heaven but are not punished for sin.
How can you say that? I said several times that Scripture dooms the Khmer victims to Hell. I'm having a devil of a time getting people to admit that.
Ken H wrote: And yes, the Khmer Rouge question does seem to give people trouble.
I can see where it troubles nonbelievers who don't understand election.
Does that mean the Khmer victims chose their fate, or were they just not elected?
How do you know God exists? more importantly, how do you know there is an afterlife.
I don't. You asked and I told you what I thought. Am I 100% sure? No.
I guess you would part ways with Judaism and Christianity at the moment Adam sinned and God presented the consequences, namely death to Adam. Your idea of a loving God would have been to accept that Adam sinned and give him a pass and just skip this whole earth thing. It is an appealing thought. The only problem I have is the chaos that would ensue in heaven where eternal beings filled with sin would make our earthly sinful lives look idyllic. Heaven would become hell.
Zoning laws and homeowners associations would help, but good luck finding a lawyer to draw up the papers.
You don't have to go to church to talk to God.
"Unsaved is unsaved." True, but it has taken the gentleman 81 years to recognize the obvious-faith and salvation, may take him a while longer. Let's hope he lasts that long.
I agreed with you. let me redress. So what. so what the Khmer victims go to hell. If they go, they were destined by God to go there at the beginning of time.
Does that mean the Khmer victims chose their fate, or were they just not elected?
Only God can choose our fates, which he did at the outset of creation.
Raycpa:How do you know God exists? more importantly, how do you know there is an afterlife.
I don't. You asked and I told you what I thought. Am I 100% sure? No.
Why do you think so ? What evidence do you base your thoughts on ?
Zoning laws and homeowners associations would help, but good luck finding a lawyer to draw up the papers.
Good one. But do you see the problem ? If we are basically evil and we have an infinite amount of time on our hands, we will eventually cause as much havoc as Hitler. our hearts need to be changed from the inside out. We can only do this be giving our hearts to God. God already knows which of us will do so, he knew from the beginning of time.
Is the following official Catholic Church doctrine?
Never trust a protestant to fully understand Catholic tradition (or a catholic for that matter)..There is often a misunderstanding about the official Catholic doctrine and its real meanings. Try these links for
http://www.cptryon.org/ask/ask/babybapt.html
http://www.catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp
Fair enough. Does the same apply to Jews murdered by the Nazis?
Why do you think so [that God exists]? What evidence do you base your thoughts on?
I don't think I could cite any hard evidence. It's simply a belief. For example, something had to cause the big bang. It just seems more logical that there would be a creator rather than not.
I have also spoken with people who underwent a near death experience. I take that as anecdotal evidence, not proof. You might say it's a judgement call...
If we are basically evil and we have an infinite amount of time on our hands, we will eventually cause as much havoc as Hitler. our hearts need to be changed from the inside out.
I have no problem with you believing we are evil. I disagree.
But from my understanding of scripture, you are a forgiven sinner when you go to Heaven, but still a sinner. Why would you not continue to sin in Heaven, whereas unforgiven sinners would, if God decides to let them in?
1. Those who die as infants or are severely mentally deficient.
*Catholics believe that they have inherited sin from Adam and will spend eternity in a state called limbo ("the edge"), where they lack the joys of Heaven but are not punished for sin.
Never trust a protestant to fully understand Catholic tradition (or a catholic for that matter)..There is often a misunderstanding about the official Catholic doctrine and its real meanings.
I don't think Michael Covington is a very good source. He misstates Catholic doctrine and he contradicts Scripture when he makes exceptions to salvation.
Maybe he just doesn't have the nerve to face the full implication of what he preaches, or is ashamed to say it in public.
Yes.
I don't think I could cite any hard evidence. It's simply a belief. For example, something had to cause the big bang. It just seems more logical that there would be a creator rather than not.
So, the fact that Hebrew prophets who had all prophecies prove true would not be as strong a source for you as your own feelings.
I have also spoken with people who underwent a near death experience. I take that as anecdotal evidence, not proof. You might say it's a judgement call...
I too have had such an experience but i base my beliefs on that plus the testimony found in scripture plus the "testimony of tradition" (those who are far smarter than me who have studied theology far longer than me).
I have no problem with you believing we are evil. I disagree.
Really. The Hebrews spent hundreds of year's simply trying to comply with a few commandments and agree that not one of their kind could ever keep them. You must be the first. Congratulations.
But from my understanding of scripture, you are a forgiven sinner when you go to Heaven, but still a sinner. Why would you not continue to sin in Heaven, whereas unforgiven sinners would, if God decides to let them in?
On earth we begin the process of changing in obedience to God. I assume this process either continues at death or is made fully complete. It is a process that cannot be forced and must be done willingly. Someone who rejects God would not agree to be changed.
I looked to find a summary that was mildy comprehensive about the doctrine of election and predestination. Anytime someone summarizes they run the risk of being too simplistic.
However, anyone who has been to seminary would have faced the questions you raise in far more detail than you have and would be comfortable with the answers. There is no need to apologize or make excuses for what God does. The best explanation God gives for his actions is simply best desribed by the "I am"
Question Can you tell me the Hebrew word or words for the description that God gives Moses about Himself in Exodus 3:14: "I AM THAT I AM" What does this mean in the original Hebrew and what is the correct pronunciation of the Hebrew text?
Answer: Rashi explains the phrase (name) to mean: I shall be with them in this sorrow, as I shall be with them in other sorrows. The Hebrew words are: eh-yeh asher ey-yeh
Rabbi Shraga Simmons
I looked to find a summary that was mildy comprehensive about the doctrine of election and predestination. Anytime someone summarizes they run the risk of being too simplistic.
Was Rev. Covington being too simplistic or was he just plain wrong?
I'd like to hear from some Catholic FReepers on that point.
Was Rev. Covington being too simplistic or was he just plain wrong?
You decide:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
It's very sad to me that best this man can do is admit that there is probably a God.
That notion never saved anyone.
Almost everyone I know admits there's a God, but it has no impact on them, as they don't bear the fruit He requires, or live exclusively for Him.
"Also, there is no afterlife, no heaven, no hell and certainly no devil."
I find your faith touching. What a leap!!!
"I understand that Arafat is a believer now as well."
The list is a long one - Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, the many who died at Sodom & Gomorrah, all who died in the Flood, every Pharaoh, each of the many religion of peace adherents who have suicided themselves in a bomb blast - the list goes on and on - and by now the author of the Koran knows that his god is a dead, never existed god, and that his writings are all lies.
"Flew said he's best labeled a deist...whose God was not actively involved in people's lives."
At 81 he has relatively few Flew years left before he discovers the truth about the God he apparently wishes not to know. Flew apparently is still choosing not to choose life.
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