Posted on 01/26/2005 9:46:21 AM PST by 7thson
When I pulled into the parking lot this morning, I saw a car covered with sacrilegious bumper stickers. It seemed obvious to me that the owner was craving attention. I’m sure he was also seeking to elicit anger from people of faith. The anger helps the atheist to justify his atheism. And, all too often, the atheist gets exactly what he is looking for.
(Excerpt) Read more at townhall.com ...
Bring quotes into it, will ya? ;)
"The world is my country, and to do good my religion."
"I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy." - Thomas Paine
"Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast." Isaac Asimov
Was there some point that you were trying to make with this whole line of posts? If so, feel free to make it.
It is possible to critically discuss religion without sliding into blasphemy, just like politics can be critically discussed without wild insults. A healthy society develops social rituals and conventions that delineate the acceptable and the unacceptable. It does so in immersion to a local culture. Naturally, different legal environments will emerge in predominantly Muslim countries and in predominantly Christian countries. This being said, if I deliberately set out to insult Muslims (or homosexuals) anywhere then I deserve to be sanctioned as per the local custom.
Our society is of two minds about hate speech laws because it lost all social convention. So at times we wish there were a law to bracket some lout, and at other times we recoil from it as we see the same law is used to muzzle legitimate debate. In a healthy culture the Muslim and the Christian would seek to separate and the homosexuals would keep to a closet, and most of it would be a moot point.
Well, I guess I am disputing that, too, lol. Just because I believe that God is the one that has endowed us with a sense of right or wrong doesn't mean I can't get why they think there can be right or wrong without God. It's quite simple, really. If there is no God, how could he have created right or wrong?
It's just the genesis of a circular argument, because each assumes the other's baseline is erroneous. It's basically an unwinnable one, unless you can get them to accept God in the first place. Or vice versa.
I'm convinced that the ruler walked away, not because of his money, but because of his pride. He thought he was good enough. He was expecting an "atta boy" from Jesus and Jesus told him that he wasn't yet accomplished. The ruler needed to rely on Jesus' mercy rather than his own goodness.
The church has done a good job of teaching us to be "good" or not "bad" at least. We know not to cuss or drink or smoke or call people names or hate our neighbor and we are good at charity. God-fearing Christians are pretty good at emulating the rich young ruler. The church has done a lousy job of teaching us to be reliant on Grace alone. We are too busy being good sometimes.
The onus is on those who say it is. I only made that conclusion based on the inability of those who claim morality without God to show why.
You are free to try. The others have all failed.
>>I'm confused. Perhaps you can clarify the difference between your original statement and my paraphrased version of it.
You: For without God, life truly has no meaning whatsoever.
Me: life without your version of "God" is meaningless<<
Be happy to. My version of God is not the perfect "version."
"1 Corinthians 13:12
Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
Fact of the matter is that if there is no creator and all existence is merely a trick of the cosmos, then nothing has any meaning whatsoever - there is no meaning in the beginning of creation nor in it's existence. The survival or extermination of all of mankind has no consequence whatsoever and morality is merely a man made myth.
Actually "Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis covers this nicely for one who would like more wisdom on the subject than I can give on a thread on Freerepublic.
I disagree. You are free to make their case for them if you think it can be done.
Your points are well made, however, there is no need for a believer to substantiate his doctrine with materialistic theory.
Not so however with the atheist - who as a metaphysical naturalist has put materialism at the center of his disbelief - otherwise his disbelief is actually a belief in rebellion to diety and in favor of self. That was my point.
In sum, there is not a scientific materialism "bar" for belief but there is for disbelief.
Either it's already clear enough or it's not. I'm satisfied to leave it to you and the Holy Spirit to mull over.
Have a nice day. See you around. May the love of Christ be with you always.
I agree with Thomas Paine that duties include doing justice and loving mercy. But why? Why should are duties include that? And what makes us believe that? Is it designed into us or a mere societal norm?
Must we continue? What call? What is noble? Says who? What is progress if this universe is all there is? For even our secular scientists say this universe will end. Why do we care about the cause of humanity? Why should we care at all? Was it designed into us?
If I understand you correctly, you would consider such a person an 'atheist', then, because he denies/doesn't believe in the true nature of God?
You might. You would also have to be tough. But by tough guys surrounding themselves with tough guys we have a tougher race and create a better future for humanity.
But in any event, that DOES well describe much of the Old Testament...
And any history book. Modern civilization serves only to wipe man off the face of the earth. Not that the earth would cry, I guess.
Is it? Oh, well...
Yeah, I didn't think you could defend it. Deep down you're an intelligent person.
Shalom.
You've just imposed prior restraint on speech based on the listener being offended. To shut down criticism of Islam, all Muslims in such a system would need to do is cry "blasphemy."
Our society is of two minds about hate speech laws because it lost all social convention.
Our Constitution isn't, however. Hate speech laws are unconstitutional.
No! Your libel demands that you answer.
You made that libelous statemnet, because you claim to be the sole posessor of logic, and you wish to denegrate others. TO wit: "For atheists, there is no logical morality. They try to squirm into it to feel better, but it's can't be done. Hence, atheism is bizarre."
Your statement is illogical and that's all your conclusion is based on.
Yet
How about the German who hides Jews from the Nazis? Where's the evolutionary benefit in that act? The German is placing his life in tremendous peril. Or is that not a moral act?
It is the ONLY strategy. It doesn't matter whether you call them homeys and they protect you because of a mutual pact or you call them police and they protect you because of some mythical higher duty. You survive or you die. The best way to ensure survival is to be the toughest and surround yourself with the toughest.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil, for I am the meanest son of a **** in the valley.
Again, that's been tried throughout history, with varying degrees of success. However, a society that is constantly picking fights with its neighbors will eventually find everyone else turning on it. Look at Germany.
And yet it is what we return to because it is what works. If you and I live long enough to see the fall of the West (and we are almost there so we may) you will see us return to it again.
Asking your neighbors to work with you because they are NICE - yeah, there's a workable strategy for you. </sarcasm>
Shalom.
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