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Shroud of Turin: Old as Jesus?
THE NEW YORK TIMES ^ | January 27, 2005 | NA

Posted on 01/26/2005 10:37:01 PM PST by neverdem

The Shroud of Turin is much older than the medieval date that modern science has affixed to it and could be old enough to have been the burial wrapping of Jesus, a new analysis concludes.

Since 1988, most scientists have confidently concluded that it was the work of a medieval artist, because carbon dating had placed the production of the fabric between 1260 and 1390.

In an article this month in the journal Thermochimica Acta, Dr. Raymond N. Rogers, a chemist retired from Los Alamos National Laboratory, said the carbon dating test was valid but that the piece tested was about the size of a postage stamp and came from a portion that had been patched.

"We're darned sure that part of the cloth was not original Shroud of Turin cloth," he said, adding that threads from the main part of the shroud were pure linen, which is spun from flax.

The threads in the patched portion contained cotton as well and had been dyed to match.

From other tests, he estimated that the shroud was between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: lanl; medievalhoax; shroud; shroudofturin; sudariumofoviedo; veronicaveil
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Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: Sacajaweau
If I draw George Washington on one of those pages with two hundred year old ink, is the drawing 200 years old?

If you scorch the outermost fibers of a linen cloth to varying degrees such that when analyzed using a NASA terrain analyzer they reveal a three-dimensional image of a man; and if the same cloth contains type AB blood matching the Sudarium of Oviedo and the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, I'd be more impressed.

42 posted on 01/27/2005 5:10:41 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Sacajaweau
Artists make three dimensional drawings all the time.

I'm an illustrator by trade. I create 3D-looking images the old-fashioned way, using pigment on paper, and by using various computer programs. I also have a degree in mechanical engineering. I find your arguments humorous.

Your arguments would be more convincing if you knew anything about the Shroud.

43 posted on 01/27/2005 5:15:23 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: neverdem

read later


44 posted on 01/27/2005 5:17:52 AM PST by bitt
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To: vpintheak
"I am part of the Christian community that says, "Who cares?" What part does a piece of clothe play in my salvation?"

It plays no part in my salvation either, but for the doubters and un-believers it could be the reason to not doubt and to believe.

45 posted on 01/27/2005 5:21:29 AM PST by auggy (http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-DownhomeKY /// Check out My USA Photo album & Fat Files)
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To: Aquinasfan

I don't mind skepticism - in fact, I think it's great for the Church - kind of like spiritual weightlifting. The great irony is that the so-called secularists are the first ones to dismiss science if it applies to religion...

Keep fighting the good fight...


46 posted on 01/27/2005 5:24:05 AM PST by Rutles4Ever (This is my tagline.)
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To: neverdem; Aquinasfan
Some interested party should seek out a really accomplished art forger and commission him/her to produce a shroud-like likeness in a linen sheet. If the money was right, I suspect that we'd soon see something amazing to behold.

Of course, there's always the Stradivarius situation. Nobody alive can produce violins comparable to the ones that Stradivarius made. We aren't quite sure how he made them, but there's absolutely no doubt that he did make them.

My guess is that the shroud is an objet d'art. But I've got no proof, so it's only a guess.

47 posted on 01/27/2005 5:28:48 AM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: Sacajaweau
If I draw George Washington on one of those pages with two hundred year old ink, is the drawing 200 years old?

Only if your hand is 200 years old! *Grins*

48 posted on 01/27/2005 5:31:42 AM PST by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier!)
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To: Aquinasfan
"Because carbon 14 testing is destructive, there won't be any more tests in the forseeable future."

Which is unfortunate, because with the new "accelerator mass spectroscopy" techniques to do carbon dating, the amount of sample needed is miniscule.

49 posted on 01/27/2005 5:38:07 AM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: Sacajaweau; Northern Yankee

Sac, do you have any 200 year old ink?


50 posted on 01/27/2005 5:41:07 AM PST by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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To: snarks_when_bored

Some articles that might be helpful to this discussion can be found at http://www.shroudstory.com

"Why No One Can Fully Explain the Pictures on the Shroud of Turin: Why nothing makes sense."

"The Second Face What does an announcement by the Institute of Physics in London mean?"

"The Ray Rogers FAQ Statements of fact that can be proved from the scientific observations." -- Actually 19 short articles on various topics:

The Shroud of Turin images are not painted

The bloodstains are real blood

Why radiation did not cause images

Why scorching did not cause images

Why the carbon 14 samples are not valid

The 1532 fire and autocatalytic process

The meaning of variegated bands

Cellulose decomposition and image formation

Superficiality of the images on the Shroud

Double superficiality and what it means

Body decomposition rates

Why fibers are not involved in image formation

Other dating methods useful for the Shroud

The 1532 fire and image properties

The 2002 restoration consequences

Optical and physical properties of flax

Image properties and the scientific method

Unconfirmed bioplastic polymer coating

Why a bioplastic did not affect carbon 14 tests

See http://www.shroudstory.com

Dan


51 posted on 01/27/2005 5:58:17 AM PST by shroudie (http://www.shroudstory.com)
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To: neverdem

Interesting.

I have always been interested in the Shroud.


52 posted on 01/27/2005 6:05:29 AM PST by redgolum
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To: Al Simmons

"Professor Stephen Mattingly, from the University of Texas, says ... "...there has to be a scientific explanation."

There "has to be," eh? Ah, the blind faith of the religious bigot.


53 posted on 01/27/2005 6:14:16 AM PST by dsc
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To: neverdem

Link to The Shroud Center in Southern California. IIRC, the center is
only open afternoons Sat. and Sun.


http://www.shroudcentersocal.com/pages/1/index.htm


54 posted on 01/27/2005 6:15:12 AM PST by VOA
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To: Aquinasfan
the same cloth contains type AB blood matching the Sudarium of Oviedo and the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano

Think of it, The Blood of The Lamb. Would there be any DNA material surviving? what might those tests show us? The thought of pursuing such testing is actually kind of frightening. Not that anything bad would happen, but just the thought of having the chutzpah to think one could "test" Christ's blood.

I've followed the Shroud controversy for all of my life. Personally I believe that it is, in fact, Christ's burial cloth and that the image was produced miraculaously on His resurrection. I'm fascinated by the various possible histories of this and other relics, such as the "spear of destiny," or the "Holy Rood."

One of the descriptions of the Image of Edessa, one of the possible early names given the Shroud, is as a "tetradiplon," or "cloth folded in eight." if you look at the shroud there are creases where it was long folded and, folding it along the creases results in a tetradiplon with only the face showing. This ties the Shroud to other artifacts that only showed Christ's face.

Some traditions hold that the Templars held the Shroud in secret, until their betrayel by Philip le Bel, and that their reverence for it, when folded only showing the face, is the origin of the charge that they "worshipped a head."

55 posted on 01/27/2005 6:15:17 AM PST by Phsstpok ("When you don't know where you are, but you don't care, you're not lost, you're exploring.")
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To: snarks_when_bored
Some interested party should seek out a really accomplished art forger and commission him/her to produce a shroud-like likeness in a linen sheet. If the money was right, I suspect that we'd soon see something amazing to behold.

The problem is, what forger could create an image the kind of which would not be known or would not exist until six centuries later? It's like asking me to forge an image the kind of which will not be known until the year 2600 A.D.

The fact that the Shroud image is a photographic negative was not discovered until the late nineteenth century.

The fact that the Shroud image contains embedded 3D topographic information was not discovered until it was passed through a NASA terrain analyzer in the 1970s.

The idea that a medieval forger would deliberately create such an image is vanishingly improbable considering that neither negative images nor 2D terrain maps were known at the time.

The other logical possibility is that this image was produced accidentally. This is also doubtful because the Shroud image has never been duplicated, nor do any other comparable images exist.

Finally, there is the blood evidence. The blood type is relatively rare and matches the blood on the Sudarium of Oviedo and the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano. Additionally, forensic experts have determined that the blood stains on the Shroud correspond to the blood stains on the Sudarium.

56 posted on 01/27/2005 6:21:50 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: LibertarianInExile
Of course, whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life!

It is not, 'if the Shroud is real then Jesus is the Son of God' and 'if it is NOT real then He isn't'. It is an interesting aside that a pack rat at the time of Jesus resurrection saw fit to take the shroud an tuck it away and that it has survived all these years. It is interesting, that's all.
57 posted on 01/27/2005 6:23:48 AM PST by Ditter
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To: Swordmaker; NYer

Thanks for the ping!


58 posted on 01/27/2005 6:30:55 AM PST by Ohioan from Florida (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.- Edmund Burke)
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To: Phsstpok
but just the thought of having the chutzpah to think one could "test" Christ's blood.

Gives me chills too.

I've read a couple of books on the Shroud which included the history that you outlined. I find the argument to be very plausible. Another corroborating fact is that artistic renderings of Christ were diverse until the eighth century, when the Shroud of Edessa was discovered. Following that date, Christian depictions of Christ are uniform and resemble the Shroud image.

59 posted on 01/27/2005 6:31:23 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Rutles4Ever
The great irony is that the so-called secularists are the first ones to dismiss science if it applies to religion...

"There just has to be a scientific explanation." Not if you dismiss the miraculous a priori, which is dogmatism in the worst sense of the word.

60 posted on 01/27/2005 6:34:54 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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