Bush: We will support Israel if her security is threatened by Iran

Jerusalem Post ^ | Feb. 17, 2005

[IAF ThunderPilot]

President George W. Bush on Thursday addressed the issue of Iran's possible nuclear armament, declining to offer his full endorsement of Europe's negotiations to get Iran to halt its suspected nuclear weapons program.

He said the United States and Europe share the goal that Iran must not develop a nuclear weapon. Still, he left it up in the air whether he fully supports Europe's approach.

"I look forward to ... discussing strategies, ways forward with the Europeans to make sure we continue to speak with one voice, and that is Iran should not have a nuclear weapon and how to work together to make sure they don't," Bush said.

Asked if was concerned that Israel might attack Iran to prevent it from acquiring a nuclear weapon, Bush said Israel is concerned about Iran's intentions.

"But clearly, if I was the leader of Israel and I'd listened to some of the statements by the Iranian ayatollahs that regarded the security of my country, I'd be concerned about Iran having a nuclear weapon as well," Bush said.

He said Israel "is our ally and in that we've made a very strong commitment to support Israel, we will support Israel if her security is threatened."

Bush spoke at a news conference where he announced that John Negroponte, the US ambassador to Iraq, would be the first US director of national intelligence, the powerful overseer of all 15 intelligence agencies.

In addition, Bush said Syria was "out of step" with other nations in the Middle East and said the United States would work with other countries to pressure Damascus to remove its troops from Lebanon.

Bush said he did not know if Syria was involved in the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri.

"I can't tell you yet," Bush said. "I don't know that. I'm going to withhold judgment until we know what the facts are."

Bush said he would consult with allies about Syria when he visits Europe next week, and said the United States supports an international investigation of Hariri's assassination.

The United States has withdrawn its ambassador to Syria, Margaret Scobey, and that "indicates that the relationship is not moving forward," the president said. He said Syria was "out of step with the progress being made in the greater Middle East."

The United States expected Syria to find and turn over former supporters of Saddam Hussein's regime and send them back to Iraq and stop supporting terrorism, Bush said. He said Syria also must comply with UN resolutions calling for it to withdraw from Lebanon. Syria has 15,000 troops in Lebanon.

Looking ahead to his European trip, Bush said he knows that some allies think that his only concern is national security, and he said that national security is at the top of his agenda.

Yet, he said, "We also care about hunger and disease. We care about the climate."

Many allies are upset with the United States for refusing to approve the Kyoto climate treaty.

"They thought the treaty made sense," Bush said. "I didn't." He noted that the Senate had voted 95-0 against the treaty. Yet, Bush said there were other ways to deal with the problem of global warming and that he would talk with allies about new technologies to deal with the issue.

[kingsurfer]

Thanks for that. I thought it would be the same as boats and such like. Cheers.

[rdb3]

The Israel of the Old Testament no longer exists. The Israel of the New Testament is the Church.

---

WRONG! That's Replacement Theology.

The church is the church. Israel is Israel. They are not interchangeable.

[rdb3]

People who start telling others that the Church is a "New Israel" are unintentionally allowing or even creating a new Anti-Semitism.

---

Can't agree with you there, RB (dang! I love those initials).

There's nothing "unintentional" about it.

[Lysshua]

Thank you so much for sharing this. I get tired of all the Replacement theologs ignoring Romans 11 too.

[RaceBannon]

Well, Im not the author of it, I just cut and paste... :)

[Lysshua]

According to Romans 11, you are wrong, and worse . Romans 11:19 So you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in" True, but so ...Don't be arrogant,on the contrary be terrified...For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted in to a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!"

[Lysshua]

I agree. Shabbat shalom from me too. B)

[Yehuda]

Thanks for the explanation!

[SausageDog]

"For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted in to a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!"

True, but in the meantime, the cut off ones are not part of the tree.
John 8:44-45. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand for the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me."
Rev. 3:9. "Behold I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet..."

[SausageDog]

"People who start telling others that the Church is a "New Israel" are unintentionally allowing or even creating a new Anti-Semitism."

Good show! When you haven't anything else to argue, just resort to the tired old anti-semitism charge.

[Ciexyz]

Way to go, Mr. Bush.

[RaceBannon]

Since that is where much anti-Semitism begins with, why not?

It is a well known doctrine of the British Israelism in some Calvinist churches that since Israel is NOT relevant to the Bible anymore than God's promises to bless those who will bless Israel is invalid today, and that Israel means THE CHURCH.

I showed what the Bible says on that, your task is to show me where God's promises to Israel are ENDED and that God replaced Israel with the Church.

[kenavi]

Iran has been proposing a nuclear-free Middle East. Guess who is opposed to that!

If Iran proposed a nuclear-free world, should the U.S. disarm?

[kenavi]

The Israel of the Old Testament no longer exists. The Israel of the New Testament is the Church.

You as a Catholic are perfectly within your rights to say that the Catholic church succeeded to the covenant.

However, you cannot say that the Jewish religion of today does not descend, directly, from the Jewish people of the "Old Testament".

Jewish scholars led by Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai made a deal with the Roman General Vespasian to spare them to establish the academy of Yavneh. (It was this Rabbi who in response to his disciples' dismay: "How can we serve the Lord after the destruction of the Temple?", answered: "By acts of loving kindness.")

Before the last Judeo-Roman wars, Jews had spread to all corners of the Roman and Hellenic world, at least, notably to Spain, Turkey (where Saint Paul ne Saul was from), and to Rome itself. In one of the last Jewish wars, some Jews in the diaspora did rise up and got slaughtered, but there is no record of a systematic extermination of Jews by Romans, who soon were more preoccupied to hunt down Christians.

Also, at the beginning of the Common Era (e.g. A.D.), Jerusalem Jews began formulating the Talmud, the essence of post-Temple Jewish life to this day, and transfered this effort seamlessly to Baghdad after the Romans expelled most Jews from Palestine.

In fact, some Jews never returned from the Babylonian exile, and due to this and other Jewish communities in the diapsora, the Jews began celebrating many important holidays like the New Year on two days rather than just one, in case communities in different time zones made a mistake, they could still celebrate contemporaneously with their brethren.

Jews expelled from Israel went primarily to western Europe through the port of Marseilles. That is why the earliest great medieval Jewish scholars were located in southern France.

So there is a clear "apostolic succession" for the Jewish religion from the Old Testament/New Testament Jews. Yeah, there were probably converts, which is fine in Jewish tradition: the Prophet Jeremiah was a descendant of Canaanites, and the great Rabbi Akiba of the great Jewish rebellion was the grandson of a convert. Nevertheless, recent DNA testing of Jews across the world of the priestly Kohan caste reveal that virtually 100% possess a Chromosone found in no other people.

I hope you will stop making unfounded claims about the Jewish people's lineage.

May the Lord give you strength and success in the Catholic faith, the world's preeminent universal creed. Your Pope has been a blessing to the world and an example for all men of faith.

Best wishes.

[F14 Pilot]

[RaceBannon]

The Specific Doctrine of Replacement Theology


The doctrine of replacement theology rests on five main pillars:


1. Israel (the Jewish people and the land) has been replaced by the Christian Church in the purposes of God, or, more precisely, the Church is the historic continuation of Israel to the exclusion of the former.


2. The Jewish people are now no longer a "chosen people." In fact, they are no different from any other group, such as the English, Spanish, or Africans.

3. Apart from repentance, the new birth, and incorporation into the Church, the Jewish people have no future, no hope, and no calling in the plan of God. The same is true for every other nation and group.


4. Since Pentecost of Acts 2, the term "Israel," as found in the Bible, now refers to the Church.


5. The promises, covenants and blessings ascribed to Israel in the Bible have been taken away from the Jews and given to the Church, which has superseded them. However, the Jews are subject to the curses found in the Bible, as a result of their rejection of Christ.


Therefore, according to Replacement Theology, all the Old Testament promises made to Israel, unless they were historically fulfilled before the first coming of Messiah, are now the property of the Christian Church. They are not to be interpreted carnally and literally, but spiritually and symbolically.


Therefore, Old Testament references to "Israel," "Jerusalem," "Zion," and the "Temple," where they are predictive, refer to the Church. In the New Testament all these things are understood spiritually (Gal. 4:21-26; 6:16; Eph. 2:19-22; Heb. 12:22).


The attraction of this doctrine comes from the Church's past. It is historically well rooted in the Church Fathers (Origen, St. Augustine and Tertullian), Martin Luther's writings and the Reformers as we shall see below.

.............................


The Historical Roots of Replacement Theology

Replacement Theology has deep historical roots, going back all the way to the fourth century when St. Augustine(354-430 AD), officially recognized as a “Doctor of the Catholic Church” and others began stirring secular(Greek) thinking into orthodox Christianity. The result was a quantum step toward marginalizing literal, biblical interpretation.


The Catholic Church quickly seized upon this theological error and straightway proceeded to establish itself for the next millennia and a half as the recipient of the various convenants which God clearly assigned to Israel. That position continues today, compounded by Catholicism's vague and feigned acknowledgement of Israel and the Jews.

........................

So powerful and distinctive was this transition from traditional, orthodox Christianity to unscriptural paths that even Martin Luther, although taking a “sola scriptura” stand against the Catholic Church, still exhibited a strong, anti-Semitic tendency even to his deathbed.


Much of mainstream Protestantism, although breaking with many of Roman traditions and dogma, still carries the extra baggage of amillennialism, post-tribulationism and its attendant anti-Semitism to the current day.


....................................................


Today’s Jewish population is thus left with only a handful of Evangelical and Fundamental Christians who follow a literal interpretation of the Bible, carefully analyzing what the Old Testament prophets such as Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah foretold regarding Israel’s future.


These are the few Christians who may still be holding back the winds of war in the Middle East, encouraging Jews to return to Palestine, thus initiating what they see as a partial fulfillment of prophecies detailed in Ezekiel 37 through 40.


As problems continue to escalate in the Middle East, that handful of Evangelical and Fundamental Christians wonder why there is no outcry or support for the Jews and their rights to the land on behalf of the so-called Protestant community.


The answer is clear when one remembers that Replacement Theology is being taught from the mainline pulpits in America as well as Europe and most who call themselves Christians don’t have the foggiest idea of what the Bible really says about that area of the world and either its historical or future significance as clearly and repeatedly stated in scripture.


What is terribly distressing about the current thinking of the Replacement Theologists who now infect most of the major seminaries in America is the number of scriptural references that these Replacement Theologists must deny as literal and of necessity place in either an allegorical or spiritualistic context.


By ignoring, or more correctly, by actually setting aside the theological importance of Israel and the Jews, these Replacement Theologists assume a clear and unmistakable anti-Semitic stance regarding these entities.


Most will vehemently deny such an anti-Semitic position, but their outright dismissal of clear scriptural references amongst both the major and minor prophets of the OT clearly places them in a bad crowd - the same secular crowd that decries the current Jewish claim to the Temple Mount and the multiplicity of references in the Torah to the Kingdom reign of Christ on earth for a thousand literal years.


...............................

Many Gentile Christians interpreted the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem as a sign that God had abandoned Judaism, and that He had provided the Gentiles freedom to develop their own Christian theology in a setting free from Jerusalem's influence.

After the Second Jewish Revolt (AD 133-135) put down by the Roman Emperor Hadrian, theological and political power moved from Jewish Christian leaders to centers of Gentile Christian leadership such as Alexandria, Rome, and Antioch. It is important to understand this change, because it influenced the early Church Fathers(Origen, et al.) to make anti-Jewish statements as Christianity began to disconnect itself from its Jewish roots.

As the Church spread far and wide within the Roman Empire, and its membership grew increasingly non-Jewish, Greek and Roman thought began to creep in and completely change the orientation of Biblical interpretation through a Greek mindset, rather than a Jewish or Hebraic mindset(Augustine and Origen are classic examples). This would later result in many heresies, some of which the Church is still practicing today.


Once Christianity and Judaism began to take separate paths, the chasm became wider and wider. Judaism was considered a legal religion under Roman law, while Christianity, a new religion, was illegal. As Christianity grew, the Romans tried to suppress it.


In an attempt to alleviate this persecution, Christian apologists tried in vain to convince Rome that Christianity was an extension of Judaism. However, Rome was not convinced. The resulting persecutions and frustration of the Christians bred an animosity towards the Jewish community, which was free to worship without persecution. Later, when the Church became the religion of the state, it would pass laws against the Jews in retribution.

The antagonism of the early Christians towards the Jews was reflected in the writings of the early Church Fathers. For example, Justin Martyr(100-166 AD) in speaking to a Jew circa AD160 said:


"The Scriptures are not yours, but ours."


Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon and disciple of Polyarp(100-202 AD) declared( c. AD 177):


"Jews are disinherited from the grace of God."


Tertullian (AD 160-230), in his treatise, "Against the Jews," announced that God had rejected the Jews in favor of the Christians.

In the early 4th century, Eusebius of Caesaria(270-340 AD) who baptised Constantine and who authored over 45 books argued that the promises of the Hebrew Scriptures were for Christians and not the Jews, and the curses were for the Jews. He argued that the Church was the continuation of the Old Testament and thus superseded Judaism. with the early Hebrews having been not Jews but “Christians” who “led a Christian way of life”.

.......................................

Destruction of Christian Witness


It is virtually impossible to imagine how much damage has been done to Christian witnessing to the Jews. Jews, in particular those in the orthodox and ultra-orthodox area, probably understand the Old Testament covenant promises better than many Christians.


Knowing God's plan to use the Church to provoke Israel to jealousy, the devil succeeded in so distorting the "faith once delivered to the saints," that the Jewish people were only too glad to reject such an idol worshiping, blood-shedding abomination.


They(the Jews) reasoned:


"How could anything that evil and malignant come from the God of Israel?"
"How could the Yeshua (Jesus) they claim to believe in, be our Messiah?
“Whatever He is, whoever He was, He is not the promised Messiah, for certainly our Messiah could not or would not, inflame His followers with such hatred and evil?"

The plan of the devil was succeeding: A perverted Church persecuting the Jews in the name of Yeshua - Yeshua, the name in which the Jewish nation must believe before He can return to destroy the devil. A master stroke of evil genius! The Jewish people could never come to faith in the one whose supposed followers persecuted and killed them.


One need not wonder why it is so difficult to witness to the Jewish population when Replacment Theology is shouted from the pulpits of many mainstream Protestant and Evangelical Christian Churches in America and from most Churches in Europe.

Had the Church understood the clear message from Romans 11 of being grafted into the Olive Tree from the beginning, then the sad legacy of anti-Semitic hatred from the Church may have been avoided.


The error of Replacement Theology is like a cancer in the Church that has not only caused it to violate God's Word concerning the Jewish people and Israel, but it made us into instruments of hate, not love in God's Name.

It is difficult to imagine that such thinking can be spiritually discerned when its component parts deviate so dramatically from what the Bible clearly teaches regarding Israel.


God clearly says to Israel in Genesis 12:2-3 that:


“...I will bless them that bless you and curse them that curse you”.

The Replacement Theologists are clearly not “blessing” Israel by their theology; only God can determine whether or not their thinking resembles a “curse” against Israel.


Included in this group of anti-Semitic, replacement theologians are those who claim to have special interpretations of the last times, including claims of “numerological” and “pattern processes” which they claim places the Church in a position to usurp the clear covenantal promises which God made to Abraham.


In most cases these well meaning but misdirected theologians and writers have developed an impressive but highly incorrect “private interpretation”, clearly condemned by 2 Peter 1:20. Simultaneously, they fail to distinguish between what is called the “Church” or “body of Christ” and those who Christ calls his “brethern”, his “nation”, the "elect" or “people” throughout the Bible.


Even Christian Reconstructionists(John Rushdoony, Gary North, Earl Paulk, et al)have fallen into this anti-Semetic trap as evidenced from the late Reconstructionist David Chilton’s book “Days of Vengence’ where he states:


“The nation that will not serve us will perish(Isa. 60:12); ‘all the peoples of the earth will be subdued under our feet’(Ps. 47:1-3 )--- (these are)promises made originally to Israel, but now to be fulfilled in the New Israel, the Church.”

Reconstructionists constitute a significant portion of that group which Washington politicians and the media refer to as the “Christian Right”. Although other types of evangelical Christians can normally be found in this group, the Reconstructionists have assumed the “intelligencia” role and have actually elevated their anti-Semitic viewpoint to another level.


They not only have assumed the convenantal promises made to the Jews but espouse a highly legalistic belief structure, claiming that Old Testament moral guidelines provided to the Jews are now to be imprinted on world government, providing a total “dominion” over things both spiritual and civil.

..............................

This article is just too long to keep excerpting, so, here is the link:
http://www.aquatechnology.net/RESURGENCE.html

[RaceBannon]

http://www.raptureme.com/tt13.html

I have met the author of this article. Almost as big as me. He doesnt read from an English New Testament, nor Old Testament, he reads from the original Greek and Hebrew!

that would take me more time that I have...I do have my "LEARN JEWISH NOW!" tapes...collecting dust on the shelf...(sigh)...

[RaceBannon]

Notes on Reconstructionism*
Roots of a New "Christian" Inquisition?
- During the 1960s, a new movement began within the sphere of Reformed or Covenant Theology, primarily out of conservative Presbyterianism (Reformed and Orthodox). That movement has been called by three different names: Reconstructionism (because it advocates the reconstruction of society),

Dominion Theology http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/cor/dominion.htm


(because its theology teaches that Biblical Christianity is to rule every sphere of society), and Theonomy (a combination of two Greek words -- theos [God] and nomos [law] -- because it asserts that all of society is to be brought into the obedience to the Mosaic Law). It should be noted that this movement is not advocated by everyone within the realm of Reformed or Covenant Theology (12/90, Israel My Glory). "The Reconstructionist movement and its allies and offshoots, by substituting political and cultural action for the proclamation of the Gospel, by substituting eschatology for soteriology, and by mangling the Gospel itself, have become tools of Romanist political action" (3/02, The Trinity Review).

"Theonomy involves the application of the law of God, and the biblical law particularly, to all of life. It also requires that one appeal to the whole law of God -- including the civil law of the Old Testament -- as a necessary supplement to being saved by grace through faith. Some of Rushdoony's followers prefer the term "reconstructionist," because they believe it does a better job of conveying their positive outlook on life. Indeed, their view of the future could be described as postmillennial, since they tend to believe that God's Kingdom will eventually be established on earth through the faithful preaching of the gospel and the faithful application of God's law to society. The result will be a Christian civilization and a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ." (Emphasis added.) (Source: William Edgar, "The Passing of R.J. Rushdoony," First Things, August/September 2001, pp. 24-25.)


http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/cor/notes_on.htm

[Tommyjo]

The Iranians if they chose would probably go through Saudi/Jordanian airspace for a retalitory attack. They have the means to do so with both F-4s and Su-24s capable of long-range missions. Their airborne tankers are still noted active and the Su-24 can be buddy-buddy refuelled. They have this option, but it would be a suicidal one!

[Tommyjo]

The Israeli's suffered aircraft losses to enemy action during those raids in 1982. Israel admitted to the losses of aircraft and aircrew captured/killed.

[Yehuda]

Thanks for those explanations as well.

[IAF ThunderPilot]

Memo to SausageDog (by the way your name fits your personality) from Israel:

Don't piss off GOD

[RaceBannon]

I needed a place that explained it in one spot, that first one was the best

[SausageDog]

"It is a well known doctrine of the British Israelism in some Calvinist churches that since Israel is NOT relevant to the Bible anymore than God's promises to bless those who will bless Israel is invalid today, and that Israel means THE CHURCH."

What I am talking about has nothing to do with "British Israel."

I showed what the Bible says on that, your task is to show me where God's promises to Israel are ENDED and that God replaced Israel with the Church."

Mt. 21:33-43. There was landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it, and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect the fruit.
The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. "They will respect my son," he said.

But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and take his inheritance." So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?

"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give his his share of the crop at harvest time."

Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?

"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."

[SausageDog]

"So powerful and distinctive was this transition from traditional, orthodox Christianity to unscriptural paths that even Martin Luther, although taking a “sola scriptura” stand against the Catholic Church, still exhibited a strong, anti-Semitic tendency even to his deathbed."

Rather you should say that so powerful is the scriptural evidence that even an ardent "sola scripture" man like Luther, who rejected Catholic authority, recognized the Church as the true inheritor of God's covenant promises.

BTW, I noticed that in your posts the "anti-Semitic" allegation appears 15 or 20 times -- I really didn't count them -- thereby demonstrating that your argument relies more on name-calling than on scriptural evidence. You ape the Anti-Defamation League well.

[RaceBannon]

Ahh, however, that does not remove the landowners love for his people.

In fact, there are several other parables like that, like this one:

(Mat 21:33 KJV) Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

(Mat 21:34 KJV) And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

(Mat 21:35 KJV) And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

(Mat 21:36 KJV) Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

(Mat 21:37 KJV) But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

(Mat 21:38 KJV) But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

(Mat 21:39 KJV) And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

(Mat 21:40 KJV) When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

So, the question is, does this apply to Israel alone or to the world?

And the answer is, to the WORLD, not just to Israel.

The book of revelation confirms that 5/6 of the Jewish population will die in the tribulation, yet what we believers often forget to tell our Jewish friends who ask: 99.999999% of the rest of the world dies, and Israel is the only one left.

Where does Jesus return? Not to Rome, not to Dallas, and certainly not to Constantinople or Manila or Toronto, but to...JERUSALEM

AND, who are the 144,000 of Rev? They are JEWS, and each tribe is mentioned, and clearly 12,000 of each tribe is mentioned, and not in parable or metaphor.

That can only be true if God's plan for ISRAEL is being fulfilled at that time.

If God is through with Israel, then you are calling God a liar when He says this::

(Jer 31:31 KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

(Jer 31:32 KJV) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

(Jer 31:33 KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

(Jer 31:34 KJV) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

(Jer 31:35 KJV) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

(Jer 31:36 KJV) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

(Jer 31:37 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

(Jer 31:38 KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

(Jer 31:39 KJV) And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

(Jer 31:40 KJV) And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

There has NEVER been a covenant with ANYONE in the Church like the covanent mentioned in that last section, those covenants are only mentioned to Israel!

Christianity has NO HOME, no CENTER, no PLACE OF WORSHIP where God said we should meet or where He would meet us, but the Jews do have such a place: JERUSALEM!

Christians are NEVER told to gather in worship in one particular city for any reason for the purpose of meeting with God in the times after the book of Acts, and they were sent OUT from Jerusalem to evangelize the world!

Jews, spreading the good news of the Messiah to the WORLD!

But, the book of revelation CLEARLY says a NEW JERUSALEM will come down...and Jerusalem was NEVER a place of worship for the Christian, only to the Jews.

THAT alone confirms that the Jews are then, are now, the chosen people of our God and Saviour.

[RaceBannon]

Umm, no, I just copied what the wuthor said, and he used the term correctly, and also made sure that the guilty got it evenly!

[SausageDog]

"It is difficult to imagine that such thinking can be spiritually discerned when its component parts deviate so dramatically from what the Bible clearly teaches regarding Israel."

This argument of yours begs the question. You assume that the State of Israel is indeed the continuation of Old Testament Judaism. If fact, both the biological connection and religious connection are very tenuous. The Romans exterminated almost the entire Jewish population of Palestine on two occasions -- once in A.D. 70 and again in A.D. 140, when the Romans put down Jewish revolts. The Jews of today are largely descendants of gentile converts.

Furthermore, the Jewish religion of today is not the Judaism of the Bible. It is a new religion which goes by the same name.

God only knows who are the biological descendants of Abraham today. There is no identifiable ethnic group which corresponds to the Old Testament Hebrews.

[riri]

The middle east will be wiped out by the Israeli response

And it can happen tomoorow or it can happen ten years from tomorrow but it is the only solution that is going to put an end to the middle east problem.

[SausageDog]

"Christianity has NO HOME, no CENTER, no PLACE OF WORSHIP where God said we should meet or where He would meet us, but the Jews do have such a place: JERUSALEM!"

No they haven't. God took care of that little business in 70 A.D.

[joedelta]

See post 42

[Salem]

'Ping' on this thread. Good solid arguments against Replacement Theology by our own RaceBannon on this thread. Read through it and save the links.

Good work, RaceBannon!





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MikeFromFR ~
There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had
spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. (Joshua 21:45)
Letter To The President In Support Of Israel ~
'Final Solution,' Phase 2 ~
Warnings ~

[Tommyjo]

Israeli airspace is not impenetrable. In both 67 and 73 Arab Air Forces conducted raids inside Israel. In 1989 a Syria defector flew his MiG-23 into Israeli airspace totally unannounced. The same went for US airspace when Cuban MiGs defected to Florida on a number of occasions without being intercepted. No airspace is completely impervious to penetration. It only takes surprise and a lucky strike. The following is an image of the MiG-23 that the Syrian pilot flew into Israel. It is now in an Israeli museum

[Edit35]

Bravo President Bush.

As a Christian, I feel it is our (the US's) duty and obligation to protect and support Israel and the Jews whenever and wherever possible.

After all, the Christian culture owes Israel and the Jewish culture a tremendous debt of gratitude, not only in religious terms, but culturally and scientifically as well.

As it says in the Bible, we are grafted into the vine ... or something like that.

[Androcles]

Yes. Not many nations are masculine - the only one I can think of offhand is Germany...

[judicial meanz]

Reference #166:

You rock! Good expository.

[joedelta]

Israeli airspace is not impenetrable.

Gosh, thanks for pointing out something I never claimed.

The same went for US airspace when Cuban MiGs defected to Florida on a number of occasions without being intercepted

There were also a slew of Soviet "Bear" bombers that penetrated US airspace. Again though, this has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

[judicial meanz]

As long as you are quoting scripture to justify your position, you may want to look at this one too:

Isaiah Chapter 49:

"I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh. They shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine. And all mankind shall know that I the Lord am your savior, the Mighty One of Jacob, your Redeemer."



This particular scripture talks about people who oppress Israel, and the rewards they reap in the end.


Replacement Theology has one MAJOR flaw, besides the fact it is a killer theological doctrine developed by men who were blotted with the stain of anti-semitism. It has resulted in the murder of many people through the centuries. That position alone would make any reasonable person question its validity.

If the church replaced Israel, as you claim, how do you explain the fact Israel exists and has since 1948? By the logic of replacement theology, they should have just remained in the Diaspora forver.

[SausageDog]

"As a Christian, I feel it is our (the US's) duty and obligation to protect and support Israel and the Jews whenever and wherever possible."

Your idea could well explain our invasion of Iraq. That WMD argument really never did look very good. Your idea could also explain why we countinue our occupation of that country even after the WMD hoax has been totally discredited. I think, however, that the families our dead soldiers may not fully appreciate the necessity of our support of Israel. Perhaps the administration should level with them.

[Salem]

"Your idea could well explain our invasion of Iraq. That WMD argument really never did look very good. Your idea could also explain why we countinue our occupation of that country even after the WMD hoax has been totally discredited. I think, however, that the families our dead soldiers may not fully appreciate the necessity of our support of Israel. Perhaps the administration should level with them."

Your hostility towards the Nation of Israel is barely veiled.

Whatever the justifications published by the Administration for world consumption for the invasion of Iraq, their goals are certainly more broad than simply the benefit of Israel. Unfortunately for those inherently hostile to the Jews who always insist on conspiracy in our Middle East foreign policy, the American government has much more far reaching objectives in that region.

Instead spouting off uneducated comments like in your post, I suggest you read George Friedman's (founder of STRATFOR) America's Secret War: Inside the Hidden Worldwide Struggle Between America and Its Enemies. The organization is well respected in American circles of influence and his detailed analysis will reveal some pretty bold objectives on the part of the Bush Administration for the Middle East. Israel is just another chess piece on their big table.

Unfortunately, strong-arming Israel into a false "peace" with her sworn enemies is part of the wider plan.

[Alouette]

The following is an image of the MiG-23 that the Syrian pilot flew into Israel.

Can you explain why it has Stars of David on the wings and fuselage but a Syrian flag on the tail?

[RaceBannon]

You assume that the State of Israel is indeed the continuation of Old Testament Judaism. If fact, both the biological connection and religious connection are very tenuous.

The religion may be or not be, but the blood line surely is, for Jews were a segregated people since their beginning, and history has proven that.

There may be more people who have abandoned their Jewish heritage because of persecution, I will grant that, but there were plenty who did NOT abandon their religion through those persecutions, they remained religiously and genetically Jewish.

I am English, Irish, Dutch and German by decent, there is no pure blood in me past 4 generations or more after that, my family might be more English than Irish, but my Irish side came from England centuries before they left Belfast!

My Dutch side came from Germany, so, where did they come from before that?

The Jews may have differing national origin of where they emigrated from, but who did they marry? THEY ALWAYS MARRIED JEWS...unless they are the ones who recanted under pressure and persecution.

[RaceBannon]

Jerusalem was NEVER mandated for the Church, but it was to Israel, so, my point is still proved correct.

[expatguy]

That is the whole point really.

Iran cannot ever be allowed to have a nuke. Case closed.

[SausageDog]

"Also, at the beginning of the Common Era (e.g. A.D.), Jerusalem Jews began formulating the Talmud, the essence of post-Temple Jewish life to this day, and transfered this effort seamlessly to Baghdad after the Romans expelled most Jews from Palestine."

Yes, yes. Indeed, contempory Judaism could more properly be referred to as Talmudism so as to distinguish itself from the Hebrew religion of the Old Testament.

[Edit35]

That WMD argument really never did look very good. Your idea could also explain why we countinue our occupation of that country even after the WMD hoax has been totally discredited. I think, however, that the families our dead soldiers may not fully appreciate the necessity of our support of Israel.

As I recall, the entire world thought Iraq had chemical and biological weapons, including anthrax.

After the anthrax letters killed a half dozen people in the US, no one, including the Democrats, wanted to take a chance that Saddam Hussein could simply supply his terrorist buddies (who at the time were living in Baghdad) with anthrax or worst, and send them into America.

That said, I don't recall Bush ever claiming that the US was in immenent danger of direct attack from Iraq, as has been claimed by the libs and the Democrat loonies.

But there WAS a real danger that Hussein could have simply helped many a foreign terrorist or alQaeda member to obtain some dangerous substance, which could have been used to kill thousands of innocent Americans or Europeans.

As for your inference to Israel, are one of those who sees all world events (and Bush decisions) through some suspicion of the Jews.

As for me, I see our Iraq policy as a brilliant start to draining the hate-filled Wahabi swamp which, until the President's bold action, was infecting the Middle East Arab countries.

By lancing that puss filled boil, the infection seems to already be slowly disappating. The world will be better off.

If that helps Israel, that's all the better.

[WaterDragon]

He said Israel "is our ally and in that we've made a very strong commitment to support Israel, we will support Israel if her security is threatened."

Why on earth would this surprise anyone, or be a strange thing for a U.S. president to say? We stand ready to help defend any democracy from totalitarian threat!

[SausageDog]

"He said Israel 'is our ally and in that we've made a very strong commitment to support Israel, we will support Israel if her security is threatened.'"

Israel is our ally against what enemies? Well, against the Arabs, obviously. And why are the Arabs our enemies? Because we are supporting Israel. Now, tell me again why we need Israel as an ally.

[SausageDog]

"He said Israel 'is our ally and in that we've made a very strong commitment to support Israel, we will support Israel if her security is threatened.'"

Israel is our ally against what enemies? Well, against the Arabs, obviously. And why are the Arabs our enemies? Because we are supporting Israel. Now, tell me again why we need Israel as an ally.

[Tommyjo]

It was evaluated by Israeli pilots after the defection.