Posted on 03/16/2005 8:34:58 PM PST by Lokibob
Pentagon delegation arrives in Taipei for talks with militaryBy Rich Chang
STAFF REPORTER
Thursday, Mar 17, 2005,Page 1
A US military delegation arrived in Taipei yesterday, and will discuss the People's Liberation Army's (PLA) capabilities with Taiwanese military officials.
A member of the delegation, who requested anonymity, told the Taipei Times that the US saw the possibility of China's launching an attack using asymmetric warfare tactics against Taiwan as increasing.
"The US is concerned as to whether the PLA would be able to start an asymmetric war against Taiwan and whether there exists a fifth column of infiltrators in Taiwan," he said.
He said that the military delegation would also attend a four-day, closed-door unscheduled briefing with the Ministry of National Defense (MND) on the PLA's ability to invade Taiwan.
Meanwhile, National Security Bureau (NSB) Director-General Hsueh Shih-ming (Á§¥Û¥Á) told the legislature on Monday that, according to NSB statistics, law enforcement officials have documented more than 49,000 Chinese illegal immigrants in Taiwan, and had repatriated more than 45,000 of them. Over 4,000 are missing.
Hsueh said that, while the NSB found that some of them are spying for China in Taiwan, the NSB has yet to uncover any organized activity among Chinese immigrants.
Hsueh, however, admitted that the NSB is concerned that China might use infiltrators to engage in asymmetric warfare against Taiwan, employing such tactics as sabotage and hacker attacks, or using biological and chemical weapons to destroy Taiwan's military infrastructure, command systems, and political and business centers in a short time.
"The goal of such tactics is to devastate the morale of our armed forces and citizens. This threat is strikingly similar to terrorism in nature," he added.
The US delegation member said that in addition to discussing Chinese infiltrators, the delegation would also exchange its views with Taipei on China's increasingly aggressive submarine force.
He said the US is concerned about incursions by Chinese submarines into the waters surrounding Japan and the Pacific Ocean east of Taiwan.
"A Chinese nuclear submarine made an incursion into waters near Okinawa last November, which really angered and affected Japan," he said.
The US is also concerned about China's acquisition of advanced Kilo-class attack submarines from Russia, he said.
He added that the US is seeking to share intelligence with Taiwan about anti-submarine warfare.
He said several delegations of US military personal would be arriving in Taipei in succession to observe the annual Han Kuang (Han Glory) exercises.
In related news, a Chinese newspaper yesterday said that the former commander of US Pacific Command, Admiral Thomas Fargo, will lead the US' biggest-ever delegation to watch this year's war games, which begin next month.
Japan will also send military personnel to Taipei, the paper said.
The report said the nation's military is preparing to conduct joint computer war games with the US and Japan, and the military will link up with the US military's Pacific headquarters in Hawaii for the first time.
To the Chinese, Taiwan is still part of China. Even if for example, a democracy were to occur in China, they will still have the same sentiment. A recent poll done on the internet in China asking whether Taiwan is part of CHina and whether China would have to use force IF Taiwan declares independence was done -- over 90% said YES. When asked to volunteer to the army for the invasion, over 80% of COLLEGE GRADUATES said yes.
The problem is that the U.S. doesn't understand Chinese history at all -- it fails to note how China suffered under the Western powers in 1800's and territories, MASSIVE amounts of territories such as Mongolia, Siberia, etc. were ceded. It fails to understand the sentiment in China about the Japanese. This is why mentioning territorial integrity or sovereignty in China menas a huge deal for them.
By aligning the Japanese with the US defense pact on Taiwan, the US has essentially unified the Chinese people on the Taiwan issue. Not a very smart move by Bush.
This is where i disagree -- Japan, unlike Germany, has not offer compensation or publically apologized via its Parliament or via the emperor. In Germany, the history is recorded as IS, in Japan, it is NOT. Right now, the Koreans just furious over Japan's claim on their island. One thing that Koreans have in similarity with Chinese is the treatment they got from the Japanese in WWII and if this continues, i believe Korea, North and South, will align themselves with China more and more, particularly with the Japanese issues such as permanent seat on the security council.
Is Russia a menace? Isn't it a democracy? A democracy doesn't mean you woudn't use force -- the perfect example is US :) It's a democracy and it still uses force against other countries (see Iraq, Vietnam, etc.)
” A recent poll done on the internet in China asking whether Taiwan is part of CHina and whether China would have to use force IF Taiwan declares independence was done -- over 90% said YES.”
Excuse me? 37000 Internet café’s where closed down in China a couple months ago. They are not back up and running. This poll is taken by only those that are alowed access to the net.
” The problem is that the U.S. doesn't understand Chinese history at all.”
You fail to note, what is today China is NOT China of the 1800’s. For some strange reason the Communist Chinese believe they are the same system that was inplace then.
” It fails to understand the sentiment in China about the Japanese.”
I know exactly what is taking place here and I believe war is envitable between China and Japan. China is sending out as much propaganda as they can to ready their people for war.
To make this perfectly clear for you. We have the same government in the US as we did when we sent the flying tigers over to protect China against the Japanese and latter had a full out war with Japan in order to save China from the Japanese. Guess whose side we are on this time? Again China IS NOT the China we tried to defend years ago.
To pretend China today has any resemblance of an honest system of government is to ignore history.
You are going to have to put the blame where blame is due. General Douglas MacArthur set up the Japanese government after WWII and let Japan save face by allowing the past to be the past. This let everyone get back to picking up our pieces and get on with life. We did not prosecute those that did war crimes against us in Japan we let them off, the opposite of what we did with Germany.
It is a hard thing to do to allow war criminals to go free but that was General MacArthur’s decision, in order to make peace with the Japanese people.
” the Koreans just furious over Japan's claim on their island.”
And rightly so in my opinion. That island was disputed, if Japan wanted it they should have negotiated a deal with the Koreans. It was definitely wrong of them to just take it like that.
I rather not get into what is the type of government every country has. What is important is if their government is corrupt or not. China’s government is as corrupt as it can get without collapsing in on it’s self.
Remember no one lives on these islands that we are talking about. Except for the Islands China took had a small number of fishermen on those islands.
The island dispute is not' about living on the islands, but about the resources that are granted as exclusive economic zones if you have ownership on the island, such as OIL, etc.
Again, you're not understanding the basic of Chinese history and culture. As far as the Chinese people is concerned, Taiwan is part of China. Even if Chiang Kai Shek had won against the Communists, it will stil claim Taiwan is part of China. See what I am saying?
If you're talking about communist governmen tin China, note that the same government in China today isn't the same as during the Mao days. It's still authoritarian, but then again, so is Singapore and you don't hear complaints about that from the US.
"I know exactly what is taking place here and I believe war is envitable between China and Japan. China is sending out as much propaganda as they can to ready their people for war.
To make this perfectly clear for you. We have the same government in the US as we did when we sent the flying tigers over to protect China against the Japanese and latter had a full out war with Japan in order to save China from the Japanese. Guess whose side we are on this time? Again China IS NOT the China we tried to defend years ago. "
No, the US does NOT have the same government today as it is in 1940's. In 1940's, blacks are denied access to vote, to have civil rights, etc. Not so today.
The US only defended China because it was capitalist - it is STILL a dictatorship under Chang Kai Shek and he lost the war because his government was extremely corrupt.
What I am pointing out is that the Japanese is using Americans to do their work. Once they amend their Constitution, they will attack other countries in Asia. Lots of nationalists in Japan and it's growing.
"” A recent poll done on the internet in China asking whether Taiwan is part of CHina and whether China would have to use force IF Taiwan declares independence was done -- over 90% said YES.”
Excuse me? 37000 Internet café’s where closed down in China a couple months ago. They are not back up and running. This poll is taken by only those that are alowed access to the net.
"
You just don't get it. If you actually can read Chinese (which i doubt you can) and actually go to the forums, you would actually find a lot of opinions on different issues, but basically nearly everyone supports the Chinese government on its dealing with Taiwan and its animosity toward Japan.
You have understand something -- for most Chinese, all of them knows someone who was killed/hurt by the Japanes ein their family. I know of no one that isn't affected.
Put it in perspective -- I came from Taiwan years ago -- and I still believe I am Chinese. In fact, over 60% of people in Taiwan think so, that's why they voted against Chen's independence moves in the last election. You really don't have a clue about how the Japanese treated the Chinese or the Taiwanese during its occupation. My father who came from mainland China witness his aunt being raped by Japanese soldiers when he was 7 years old, for example. It's not something people would easily forget.
I am just writing this to let you know of another opinion on this matter. IF US gets Japan involved with the Taiwan issue, it will only unify China to a much greater extent -- it will not fall apart like Iraq, it's a nationalistic/racial thing. U.S. would be viewed as another Western power seeking to dominate Chinese people, as Brits, etc. are viewed in the past.
Give you an example -- during Kosovo, when the US fighters "mistakenly" dropped a bomb on Chinese embassy -- the students rose up in China, the same students that was "crushed" in 1989 demonstration, and attacked US consulates in Beijing and other cities. One US consulate was shocked because he thought the students think the US is on their side. But when the country was "attacked", the reverse happened.
The Chinese may not like the communist regime that much, but they tolerate them. They definitely HATE Japanese and Western influence over China's affairs MORE.
Unfortunately, conservatives and liberals in this country does not understand this. Why did US fail in Vietnam? Because it doesn't have popular support and the only way to win the war was to commite genocide and kill every Vietnamese. It won't have popular support in China if it interferes over Taiwan.
Live one!
Just as some in Russia believe Alaska is part of Russia and some in Russia believe it should be taken by force. Do you see how that works?
Actually Singapore is a hot bed that is greatly under estimated. Al Quada is setting up shop there for some serious action.
” China today isn't the same as during the Mao days.”
Mao was never a threat to the US directly, indirectly he was when we attempted to quell civil wars that I personally feel we should have never got involved in (Korea/Vietnam.) Our spineless leaders always backed down when China and Russia threatened us to get out of those civil wars. In my opinion as far as the Korean War we should have taken China when they attacked us. General Douglas MacArthur was fired because he wanted to take China but our spineless leaders couldn’t see past their nose.
Mao was a serious threat to his own people and should have been dealt with by their people. But please explain to me how China’s government today isn’t a Communist Maoist type government?
We are talking about a minority of people that wasn’t getting a far voice. We are now allowing the minorities to have a voice, how does this change our system of government?
”Lots of nationalists in Japan and it's growing.”
This is based off of the Shinto religion, which believes Japanese is the superior race. As far as I am aware this religion hasn’t taken root to anything near the power it had before WWII.
If you have information showing this religion is gaining political power I would love to see it.
”If you actually can read Chinese (which I doubt you can) and actually go to the forums, you would actually find a lot of opinions on different issues, but basically nearly everyone supports the Chinese government on its dealing with Taiwan and its animosity toward Japan.”
Could you direct me to a forum that still exists that I can look back and read the logs prior to the closing of the Internet Café’s? (I can have some of it translated with the magic of the internet. haha)
”during Kosovo, when the US fighters "mistakenly" dropped a bomb on Chinese embassy -- the students rose up in China, the same students that was "crushed" in 1989 demonstration, and attacked US consulates in Beijing and other cities.”
I am in complete agreement there. That war was unjust and that attack on Chinas embassy was NO accident. There is NO damb way our military used ‘old’ maps as the traitor and chief weaseled his way out of. I only wish China done more when that took place, that was just wrong.
”The Chinese may not like the communist regime that much, but they tolerate them. They definitely HATE Japanese and Western influence over China's affairs MORE.”
Hate is the key to keeping people’s attention off of domestic problems. You say your father seen Japanese soldiers rape his sister, but under Moe how many people where taken and never seen again? Then how often is that done today? For example the brave student that stopped the tanks that went in after the massacre of those people in the sqaure, what happened to the tank men and what did they do wrong?
All empty.
Fangpi shou zhangdegongfei.
Taiwan is not part of China.
You'll get used to it in time.
Try anything and you'll see just how strong your communists are.
Ni mingbai ma, xiao haizi?
Keep in your place and you will be fine.
Guai guai-o little one.
Go go ba ba zhen wei da -- they protect our land -- but I'll tell you -- you never grew up.
Tallhappy:
What's your freaking point? Other than using cussing Chinese words?
China is not communist any longer, only idiots like yourself would keep on this line.
Taiwan IS part of China. When China cuts off trade with Taiwan in its "non-peaceful" efforts, we'll see how long Taiwan lasts. China doesn't have to use military to subdue Taiwan. Taiwan's economy, by 2008, will be completely dependent on the mainland.
"Mao was a serious threat to his own people and should have been dealt with by their people. But please explain to me how China’s government today isn’t a Communist Maoist type government?"
DId you realize that last year, even the Communist party removed "Marxist ideology" from the party doctrine? It's only an authoritarian state now, the "Communist" part is an empty shell.
I went to China in 1998 to visit my aging grandmother. While I was there, i had a debate with one of the local judges (who was a very distant relative of my grandmother) about democracy in the US versus China and he agrees that the US is far more democratic. Neither of us were arrested, in fact, he was promoted. I think that spell progress, don't you think?
The thing is, eventually China will become democratic, but it will take time and will not be forced by outside influences. It doesn't matter if China is democratic or not, the Chinese people will STILL insist that Taiwan is part of China and any attempt to separate it will result in use of force. Is the US willing to use force on China when China becomes democratic??? :)
Anyway, it's all a moot point to debate about this, because we all know that while Bush is tangled in Iraq, his options are limited with regards to China and intervention. And even Bush and the administration knows that any intervention with Taiwan would be a small scale thing -- it will not be an outright invasion. The Korean war proves how devastating it would be for American troops if it were to go into the mainland -- remember, China was FAR, FAR, FAR behind technologically at the time, then it is today (it's behind the US technologically, but the gap has narrowed significantly), and still was able to finish the war in a stalemate.
The only way the US would win in such scenario is to use nuclear weapons, and the US will not do so -- if it does, heh, get ready of nuclear war (not just China, but from Russia, etc. Do you really think radiation will just sit there and not move as many posters on this forum advocates?)
"Could you direct me to a forum that still exists that I can look back and read the logs prior to the closing of the Internet Café’s? (I can have some of it translated with the magic of the internet. haha)"
One such non-government site is: http://www.sina.com.cn I don't know the exact link any longer, but there are always news on Japan/China on the site and you can read the reaction from the posters.
"This is based off of the Shinto religion, which believes Japanese is the superior race. As far as I am aware this religion hasn’t taken root to anything near the power it had before WWII.
If you have information showing this religion is gaining political power I would love to see it."
Just look at their prime minster repeated trips to worship the dead war criminals :) Do i have to say more? He didn't get any type of public rebuke or any type of punishment for it. I'd say, that means, the population sentiment is shifting. Democracy or not, all government is ruled by the support of the population, and a Democracy can be just as dangerous as a non-democratic country. If the Germans rised up against Hitler, do you think he could've ruled? No, so in essense, Hitler had the support of the German people, the same with any democracy whose leaders are elected.
"Hate is the key to keeping people’s attention off of domestic problems. You say your father seen Japanese soldiers rape his sister, but under Moe how many people where taken and never seen again? Then how often is that done today? For example the brave student that stopped the tanks that went in after the massacre of those people in the sqaure, what happened to the tank men and what did they do wrong?"
That was under MAO. The government in China is totally different today than it was under Mao. BTW, i think most Chinese agree that the Tiananmen incident was WRONG by the government but also most Chinese think that it was necessary at the time. They just didn't agree the government should hav eused LETHAL force (unfortunately they didn't have crowd control measures with non-lethal measures such as tear gas). Even some of the student protestors that had escaped or released later admits that the government was 60% incorrect in its use of force but the students are wrong for the other 40%.
BTW, they did an interview with the tank crew -- the captain just felt sorry for the student and didn't run him over. And if you ask most Chinese, they'll tell you the student is an idiot :-) It's funny how different perceptions are there from different countries.
Nothing.
The point is you can propagandize for a despotic murderous regime all you want but it will have no effect.
The point is you are empty blather.
The point is if you ever actually believe your blather and try to act on it in any aggresive manner you will learn very fast that was a bad decision.
Ni Mingbai ma?
Where's the proof that Taiwan isn't part of China? :) I offered the historical perspective, where is yours?
The fact is, Chen Shui Bian can say whatever he wants, once conflict starts, he'll be the first one to flee the island and leave the people behind.
I didn't say I am going to support China, what I am saying is that Taiwan is putting itself into this situation by being on track to declare independence.
Also, if Taiwan isn't part of China, why doesn't most of the world recognize Taiwan as a country?? Eh? Even Bush recognizes the one China policY, doesn't he?
So where's your next move now? Other than to be a cry baby for Taiwan independence -- u must be one of those guys in Taiwan that believe Taiwan is separet from China. OK, fine, don't use Chinese language in your schools, don't use Chinese characters. Don't follow Chinese culture traditions. I don't see the Taiwanese doing that at all :)
BTW, just because Taiwan is a "democracy" (and a shaky one at that -- given that Chen Shui Bian got elected by shooting himself in the stomach to gain sympathy votes), doesn't give it a right to secede. Virgiinia declared independence and secession, so did Tennessee, Georgia, Missippi, etc. Democratically elected too. What did United States do? Use force and invade the South during the civil war. If Taiwan wants independence, it has to fight a war, no doubt about that. Even if China can't invade Taiwan successfully, most Taiwan industrial areas are going to be destroyed and Taiwan will be in a stone age, and the only thing it can produce is rice.
I like your honesty and straightforwardness.
As far as Taiwan. If it were part of China we wouldn't be having this discussion.
You also fail to note that if Taiwan declares independence, it is relying solely on the US to give it protection. What protection can the US give? In the first 48 hours, missles from Fujian province will hit everywhere in Taiwan on its economic resources such as oil refinery, two nuclear reactors, Tsinchu Industrial park (TSMC, etc. are going ot be destroyed), Taipei, etc. Patriot missles are estimated to be able to shoot down around 15%, so it means even if Taiwan has 700 Patriot missles, matching China's missles, it can only shoot down 105 of them, 600 are still gonna land. By the time US carrier groups gets there, and IF Bush decides to do so (if Taiwan declares independence FIRST, then i have serious doubts that Bush will even act -- Bush will only act if China attacks without provocation), 90% of Taiwan's industrial/economic strength will be destroyed.
If you're Taiwanese and you want this for your own people, you're freaking stupid. US policy has always been to sacrifice other people for their own strategic interests. Killed 100,000 Iraqi civilians to topple Saddam, murdered 1 million black slaves for its own economic growth in the 1800's, killed millions of German and Japanese civilians during WWII (though in this case, i'd agree what had to be done), supported Saddam Hussein in the 80's, even during his chemical war on his own people, etc. etc.
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