Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism (Pope Bound for Hell).

Knoxville News-Sentinel Co. ^ | April 13, 2005 | JEANNINE F. HUNTER

[Dean Baker]

Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005

NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.

"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."

The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."

The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.

"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."

It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.

"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.

He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."

Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."

Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.

"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.

James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.

"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."

Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.

"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.

Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "

He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.

Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.

[adiaireton8]

"To whom is the you spoken about refer?"

Is it ONLY to Peter; or is it to ALL of them?

The "you" is singular in the Greek. He is talking only to Peter. I will give [soi] to you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever "you" (singular) bind, ... whatever "you (singular) ....

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Do you have a question?

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Elsie,

First, you don't have the authority to determine the meaning of Scripture.

Second, Scripture (like every other form of communication) has to be interpreted in context, not by doing a concordance search.

Third, do you think that for 1500 years, the Church was mistaken about what the rock was? All the Church Fathers were mistaken? And yet you, in 2005, know better than they, what that rock is?

Fourth, the Gospels were written after Pentecost, after Peter was already called Peter. That explains the references to Peter as Peter in parts of the Gospels that talk about Peter before Christ gave him the name Peter.

Fifth, the fact that Christ is the Rock is not incompatible with Peter being the rock in another sense. In fact, as the represntative of Christ on Earth, we should expect Peter to be like Christ in this respect, that he too is a rock. Just as God changed Abraham's name, and built the Jewish nation from him, so Christ changed Peter's name, and built the Church on him.

Sixth, if you knew Greek and Aramaic (and understood the principles of exegesis), you would see that the rock in Matt 16:18 is definitely Peter.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

The ground may be barren, but even Christ sowed seed on barren soil.

-A8

[AD from SpringBay]

Catechism, 846, 14:6

And exactly why do you [apparently] think that these two claims are incompatible?

Folks, you both seem to be asking about the same question or raising the same point - I've included you both in my reply. Hope you don't mind.

I imagine I'll go on too long and the differences will remain, BUT - by saying that you have to be a member of the Catholic church in order to get to heaven is placing a barrier between the believer and the Lord that is not there. Christ isn't the church. The church didn't die on the cross for our sins. The redemption is in Christ Jesus.

Also understand, I am one of those who sees the Bible as the sole rule of faith. So, whoever wants to add the part about being a part of the church or going to hell needs to be really careful. adiaireton8 said in an earlier reply something to the effect that, "Of course God, being omniscient, can do what He wants." What a gracious allowance. I'm thinking we disagree on that one.

I'm also thinking that our definitions of church are going to be different. As I see in the Bible, church (from the Greek ekklesia) means an assembly - with the same meaning you might think of when you hear about a high school assembly - you're either physically present, there or not there. Ekklesia is the only word that was ever translated into "church" or "churches" in the KJV. In that sense, it's impossible to have a visible assembly of all the believers at the same time until, of course, Jesus returns. Until that time, we have only local churches. There is no precedent for the Bishop of Rome to exert authority over the other churches. Even if Peter was the first Pope (and I don't think he was) there is no example of him directing the church at Antioch or of setting leadership up for any of the other New Testament churches. For another example, notice in Relation that the seven churches (plural) in the early chapters each receive their own letters, and they are from John - not Peter; but I digress.

Now, in John 14 Jesus is speaking to the disciples at the last supper. In one of His last, pre-crucifixion opportunities to teach them, He tries to prepare them for His His departure. Then we read John 14:6. I'm thinking that the disciples who took the Lord's Supper that evening were the first church. John 14:6 and Catechism 846 are not the same because Jesus is instructing His church that they need to believe in Him, even though they are already "the" church. Make sense?

Another reason is because I know (and you too, probably) people can believe in Jesus Christ all by themselves - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). This can happen without ever assembling with other believers. Such would be an impoverished spiritual life and not in accordance to what believers ought to be doing, but it would be possible. The thief on the cross never had the opportunity to belong to a (the) church and serve Him. But he did have the opportunity to believe in Jesus as the Son of God. He was never baptised either. For such belief he was promised to be in paradise within hours.

[BriarBey]

"Jesus said, many will come saying I am the Christ (exactly what you are doing...saying he is the Christ) but in their ways they will deny me."
That is not a verse in the Bible. I don't know where you got it, but it is not in the Bible.

*****
Mark 13:5

Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, I am he, and will deceive many.

Don't have time to research more, but there are many warnings.

[BriarBey]

VERY GOOD Elsie!!

[BriarBey]

WELL said AD....Am watching VERY intently tomorrow...Passover....how FAR will the counterfeiting go?
What wonderous miracles will we see within the next 3-4 days? The timing is perfect and the world will reel like a drunkard and run to her in droves.

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

You don't have to agree with a person's dicta in order to be friendly with them.

Remember that sugar attracts more bees than vinegar.

But using your analogy, you'd have very few friends, if any at all, because (again according to your analogy), you'd have to agree 100% with a person at all times in order to be friends with them.

Sounds like a what the zombies at DU or moveon.org would believe...

[BriarBey]

Remember that sugar attracts more bees than vinegar.
*****

What can I say...I'm not an ear tickler, but I am usually liked. I would bet if you saw me in public you would want to talk to me.....most do. I know no strangers. I'll tell you what I think....and if its in person, you'll walk away really NOT SURE if you should be mad or not, or if you have been complimented or insulted....LOL. But you will be THINKING....isn't that a novel idea!!

People are so funny....and ssssoooo predictable.

[Conservative til I die]

Not true. If you wish to try to prove me wrong, just show me the scripture that supports Catholic Eucharist, Catholic Baptism, and Catholic Confession

Matthew 28:19-20
Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

Matthew 26:26-28
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

[Conservative til I die]

W-w-wait a second. So you don't believe Jesus is God? You're a heretic.

[Conservative til I die]

Let me guess, we have a Jehovah's Witness here.

[Conservative til I die]

The whole concept of an eternal hell fire and brimstone just doesn't line up with the Scriptures. HUH????

Protestantism at its finest! Two Protestants both attacking the Church for not holding to Scripture, now differing on whether there is a hell.

It's like a regular Tower of Babel.

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Interesting, but I would caution you that you work against your long-term self-interest if you alienate potential allies that you may need later.

As an example, I don't diss Muslims (as many here do), because they make wonderful allies on practical matters of moral living. I disagree with much of their belief system, but when it comes to needing support against purveyors of porn, homosexuality and general moral nastiness, you won't find better allies anywhere.

Personally, I'm more worried about condeming myself to hell than my neighbor.

[TightyRighty]

First, you don't have the authority to determine the meaning of Scripture.

Sixth, if you knew Greek and Aramaic (and understood the principles of exegesis), you would see that the rock in Matt 16:18 is definitely Peter.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't exegesis basically someone's interpretation of Scripture. An exegete interprets the not so cut and dry areas of the Bible.

[BriarBey]

W-w-wait a second. So you don't believe Jesus is God? You're a heretic.

---

No I don't...and I am already a hairy tick....roflol...cause I know the RCC is not what she says she is.

[the invisib1e hand]

Has Betty Bowers been consulted on this?

[BriarBey]

It's like a regular Tower of Babel.
****
You really are not very knowledgeable about scripture are you? Why am I not surprised.

Tower of Babel.....

Gen. 11:4 Then they said," Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth.
Gen. 11:5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the were building.........
Gen. 11:8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, they stopped building the city.

The Lord did not seem to approve of their type of unity.

[Peelod]

I can only use the tools that I have been given.