Military Judge Rejects England's Plea Deal

FoxNews.com ^ | May 4, 2005 | AP

[cweese]

FORT HOOD, Texas — A military judge on Wednesday rejected Pfc. Lynndie England's guilty plea agreement in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal after another prisoner's testimony cast doubt on the prosecution's case. Earlier in the day, Pvt. Charles Graner Jr., the reputed ringleader in the scandal, contradicted a key part of England's guilty plea, in which she said she knew she was committing wrongful acts when she took part in the mistreatment of Iraqi detainees. Graner said that the notorious photos taken of England at the prison had a legitimate use, endangering England's guilty plea to seven abuse charges. Under military law, a judge can formally accept England's guilty plea only if she knew at the time that what she was doing was illegal. The judge, Col. James Pohl, planned to question England again Wednesday afternoon to try to clarify her state of mind when the abusive acts occurred. Graner, who is said to be England's ex-boyfriend, was found guilty in January and is serving a 10-year prison term for his role in the scandal. Pohl abruptly stopped England's sentencing hearing after Graner testified for the defense that three pictures he took of England holding a naked prisoner on a leash were meant to be used as a legitimate training aid for other guards.

[thag]

You know this is driving the DU crowd absolutely NUTS.....

[MindBender26]

>Give her a medal......forget the court martial.

With all due respect, one of the more foolish posts ever. If we don't want our POWs mistreated, we cannot mistreat those we hold.

Can you imagine how many times this has been published in ME newspapers!?!?

Current and former military people understand this all too very well.

[el_chupacabra]

[BikerNYC]

She was never abusing anyone. Humiliating? Yes. Abusing? No way!

If I saw foreign troops doing that to American soldiers, I would certainly say the soldiers were being abused.

[cweese]

Yes I'm sure it is and I LOVE IT!

[RetiredArmy]

It has nothing to do with violating the Geneva Convention. It has to do with violating the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

[cynicom]

Typical military "justice". Hang the lowest ranking enlisted people found standing around. After the hanging they will all retire to the club and have a good laugh or two. Good ole boys look after good ole boys or girls.

[RetiredArmy]

I once had a first sergeant, in formation, state: I run this company, not him, referring to the CO, who was standing behind the formation. The CO said nothing either. The First Shirt was 6 foot 7, weighted about 300 pounds. The CO was maybe 5-10, 175. No argument there! But, 1SG Ellsworth, we nicked named him "the bear" was one mean SOB, demanded perfection, took no BS, tough on the NCOs, demanding they do their jobs, take care of the troops, take no crap, and made the enlisted folks walk a straight line, or you answered to HIM. Best danged 1SG I ever had. We lost him when he made Command Sergeant Major and left the company. Got a dud replacement.

[risk]

Dresden was one of the more spectacular examples of a major incineration of an essentially non-combatant city. It happened early in 1945. The fire bombings killed more people than expected.

Kurt Vonnegut writes about it in his fictional account of his own experience in Slaughterhouse Five. He was a POW held in an icebox, which is how he survived.

[risk]

I have to agree with you: we need to think about our own troops and how we expect them to be treated at all times.

[KC Burke]

Good. Maybe there will be justice for this poor creature after all. She was following orders to "humiliate" the prisoners -- not torture them. Since the Geneva Convention does not apply to non uniformed terrorists, what the hell is her crime?

It's pretty sorry that they are burning a couple of low ranking enlisteds for all of this.

Your statement on the Geneva Convention issues is so poorly worded and thought out that it weakens the valid arguments that are correctly made excluding terrorists from POW status.

The Geneva Convention does deal with the status and treatment of all classifications of individuals in and after combat. Lawful combatants; terrorists and unlawful combatants; common criminals; detainees found already incarcerated; and Lawful combatants that have become POWs through surrender, capture or laying down of weapons without surrender, are all covered in the provisions.

The poorly run prison had many or each type, plus questionable detainees. Its management was poorly done, but not unbelievable in a combat zone with a terror war unfolding.

Temporary poor management oversight by the Prison Commander and the Military Intel Commander on the site was not the cause of the cluster of abusive actions by a deranged group of idiots. Sure, if the poor management hadn't existed the abuse would have been stopped and corrected before reaching the level it did, but the abuse was done by this vile collection of people including the other woman who put England and "lover boy" up to taking the pictures.

The abuse made the problem not double the problem of the poor management, but instead, a hundred-fold much worse. There is no comparison.

I care deeply that our military service people and their image was at all impacted by the conduct of the people actually carrying out this abuse. Saying that they were scapegoats is what the incompetent Reserve General in charge of the prison is claiming -- I don't believe it from any of them.

[risk]

You're welcome. I do not consider the "non-combatants" innocent in the case of Dresden, in case you're wondering. But I do think it's important that we give thinkers like Vonnegut a chance to express reservations; if we could commit such acts without any remorse, despite the depravity of the enemy we felt required to destroy, we would bring ourselves down to their level.

[speed_addiction]

1SG Nichols was loud, gruff and mean as a snake. But through that rough demeanor was an obvious love of his soldiers. He took great delight in cooking our eggs for us on Sundays when we were in the field. He always brought coffee out to us when we were manning the SAWs out on the perimeter. But if you screwed up, you felt his wrath and it was not pretty.

He disciplined the troops himself, off of the books. You just came into his office and threw three dice and that was your days of extra duty for the 1SG. Should he resign himself that you were a lost cause, he would send you see the CO. There you had no repreive because the CO knew that the 1SG was tired of dealing with you.

Any soldier in the Company would walk barefoot across broken glass to drag that man out of enemy fire and we had no doubt he would do the same for us (though in his gruff way he would probably be cursing us while he did it).

[Rembrandt_fan]

You wrote that you approve of her actions.

Really? You approve of torturing and humiliating prisoners for the fun of the thing, for no discernible military purpose--in complete contradiction, of course, to every treaty governing the rules of war and treatment of prisoners to which the US has been a signatory?

You're deluding yourself. I refuse to believe my countrymen 'by and large' either actively approve or are passively uncaring about pointless, mindless torture and abuse committed by American soldiers. In my view, those who do actively (and in your case, enthusiastically) approve of what happened at that jailhouse in Iraq are moral cripples, plain and simple.

I bet you loved that magnifying glass and anthill game when you were a kid.

[samtheman]

Promote her. Arrest the prosecutors. Sentence them to make little rocks out of big rocks for the next several years.

[B4Ranch]

While you look at these pics, notice there is no urine or feces on the floor. Lyndie isn't dripping in blood nor are the prisoners.

Could you survive this?

or this?

Or this?

How about this?

PAUL jOHNSON DIDN'T SURVIVE THIS BEHEADING

[demlosers]

I hurt myself more shaving.

[RetiredArmy]

Sounds like 1SG Ellsworth. Too damned bad we had more sorry first sergeants than we had good ones. One of the absolute worse I ever had was when I was with the 1/327th, 101st Abn Div (Air Assault) at Fort Campbell, KY in 1974-75. Fool was the worse. A drunk. Cared only for his own career and no one else's welfare. He learned I lived near his shackup off post, so he had me start picking him up on my drive in every morning. He did not drive and his shack up always brought him in. That led to him making me hang around at night waiting on him to be ready to go home. I was a squad leader in the 4.2 mortar squad. So, I had to sit around waiting on this fool. Then he wanted to stop at the club and guzzle about 10 beers. I did not drink for fear of DUI. So, here I was sitting in the damned NCO club till 10, 11 at night waiting on this drunk. So, one day, I told my platoon sergeant and platoon leader what was going on. The Plt Leader told the XO. The XO was livid about it. He said the 1SG should not be abusing a lower ranking soldier that way. I had drive this fool around for five or six months. He never bought one gallon of gas. But, heck, I was a young E-5 and afraid of the 1SG and what he could do to my career, put me on all the rotten details, etc. So, in the end, I finally had enough. Later I was reclassified after reinjuring my leg which I had been wounded in Nam in, and left the company. I later learned that the guy got a car of his own and within a month, was involved in a DUI car wreck. Busted and out of the company, relieved for cause, and probably forced to retire. Couldn't have happened to a better guy.

So unfortunately, for every couple of good ones, there are ones like this bast@r*.

[Nebr FAL owner]

I want to know how many of the folks that were running that zoo have been convicted ? You know the ones that hold officer's commisions,how many "private contractors" are facing jail time? The female general that was in charge of the prison has been cleared .