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What Women Want
NY Times ^ | May 24, 2005 | JOHN TIERNEY

Posted on 05/24/2005 12:48:37 PM PDT by neverdem

Suppose you could eliminate the factors often blamed for the shortage of women in high-paying jobs. Suppose that promotions and raises did not depend on pleasing sexist male bosses or putting in long nights and weekends away from home. Would women make as much as men?

Economists recently tried to find out in an experiment in Pittsburgh by paying men and women to add up five numbers in their heads. At first they worked individually, doing as many sums as they could in five minutes and receiving 50 cents for each correct answer. Then they competed in four-person tournaments, with the winner getting $2 per correct answer and the losers getting nothing.

On average, the women made as much as the men under either system. But when they were offered a choice for the next round - take the piece rate or compete in a tournament - most women declined to compete, even the ones who had done the best in the earlier rounds. Most men chose the tournament, even the ones who had done the worst.

The men's eagerness partly stemmed from overconfidence, because on average men rated their ability more highly than the women rated theirs. But interviews and further experiments convinced the researchers, Muriel Niederle of Stanford and Lise Vesterlund of the University of Pittsburgh, that the gender gap wasn't due mainly to women's insecurities about their abilities. It was due to different appetites for competition.

"Even in tasks where they do well, women seem to shy away from competition, whereas men seem to enjoy it too much," Professor Niederle said. "The men who weren't good at this task lost a little money by choosing to compete, and the really good women passed up a lot of money by not entering tournaments they would have won."

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events; US: District of Columbia
KEYWORDS: employmentatwill; estrogenpoisoning; executives; feminazis; freedomofcontract; hiring; management; manhaters; promotion; testosterone; women
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1 posted on 05/24/2005 12:48:37 PM PDT by neverdem
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To: neverdem

fascinating, as much in its content as that the Slimes would print it.


2 posted on 05/24/2005 12:51:32 PM PDT by King Prout (blast and char it among fetid buzzard guts!)
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To: neverdem

bump


3 posted on 05/24/2005 12:52:04 PM PDT by holdmuhbeer
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To: neverdem

As a woman, and as a particularly NON-competitive woman, I think most women are into cooperation, which is generally how women treat each other and work together. Men compete and women cooperate. There are always exceptions but I think the general tendencies are there. I just wish society would value more highly the things that women ARE good at, such as taking care of people, rather than manipulating things and systems.


4 posted on 05/24/2005 12:52:29 PM PDT by blueblazes
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To: neverdem
What Women Want

Chocolate. Next question?

5 posted on 05/24/2005 12:53:21 PM PDT by TheBigB (These aren't the droids you're looking for...)
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To: blueblazes

"I just wish society would value more highly the things that women ARE good at, such as taking care of people, rather than manipulating things and systems."

Heh, I've seen quite a few men here on FR who would probably argue that women are masters at manipulating.


6 posted on 05/24/2005 12:55:09 PM PDT by Chiapet (Chthulu for President: Why vote for a lesser evil?)
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To: neverdem
Suppose that promotions and raises did not depend on pleasing sexist male bosses

Is this an opinion piece or a "report?"

Oh, NY Times. Purely opinion, objectiveness is not even attempted.

Long live bloggers.

Interesting note: "Bloggers" does not pass the spell check, but "AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH" does.

7 posted on 05/24/2005 12:55:19 PM PDT by Finger Monkey (H.R. 25, Fair Tax Act - A consumption tax which replaces the income tax, SS tax, death tax, etc.)
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To: neverdem

How much did those two get paid, for conducting this "study"?


8 posted on 05/24/2005 12:55:47 PM PDT by samtheman
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To: blueblazes
I just wish society would value more highly the things that women ARE good at, such as taking care of people, rather than manipulating things and systems.

I am glad you didn't list "driving".

And women don't manipulate things? Your kidding right?

9 posted on 05/24/2005 12:56:10 PM PDT by Phantom Lord (Advantages are taken, not handed out)
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To: blueblazes

I think that society DOES value what you mention. Look at the high pay that doctors get. Also, although many teachers complain of low pay, they receive high psychic income, as well as schedule that allows for more free time than most other professions.


10 posted on 05/24/2005 12:57:05 PM PDT by oblomov
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To: Phantom Lord

Depends on what you mean by "things", lol.


11 posted on 05/24/2005 12:57:08 PM PDT by blueblazes
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To: Chiapet

Possibly manipulating people, but I meant things as in plumbing, electronics - inanimate things. I think Larry Summers might agree with me.


12 posted on 05/24/2005 12:57:59 PM PDT by blueblazes
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To: blueblazes
Possibly manipulating people, but I meant things as in plumbing, electronics - inanimate things

You sure?

13 posted on 05/24/2005 12:59:05 PM PDT by Phantom Lord (Advantages are taken, not handed out)
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To: blueblazes

Hmmm...

Then why are women universally more vicious towards each other than men are to other men?


14 posted on 05/24/2005 12:59:55 PM PDT by Strategerist
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To: blueblazes

"As a woman, and as a particularly NON-competitive woman, I think most women are into cooperation, which is generally how women treat each other and work together. Men compete and women cooperate. There are always exceptions but I think the general tendencies are there. I just wish society would value more highly the things that women ARE good at, such as taking care of people, rather than manipulating things and systems."

I don't know if you have ever been involved in a team atmosphere with a bunch of women but it seems to me they are generally much less cooperative, and more backstabing then men. Males will certainly compete and hash out who the alpha male is, but once the pecking order is determined they generally do what is best for the team. Whereas it appears to me that women continually undermine each other.


15 posted on 05/24/2005 1:01:09 PM PDT by shoffma1999
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To: Phantom Lord

Pretty sure - look at the relative numbers of women in professions involving people versus involvement with things or systems.


16 posted on 05/24/2005 1:01:24 PM PDT by blueblazes
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To: blueblazes

I guess Larry Summers was right!


17 posted on 05/24/2005 1:02:19 PM PDT by Phantom Lord (Advantages are taken, not handed out)
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To: blueblazes

>>I think most women are into cooperation<<

I disagree. Women can be the most uncooperative, especially when they don't feel they've been emotionally rewarded. As you said, there are always exceptions.


18 posted on 05/24/2005 1:02:23 PM PDT by 1L
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To: blueblazes

I also think that the reason women so dominate or make up significant portions of some industries and professions is cultural and historical.


19 posted on 05/24/2005 1:03:20 PM PDT by Phantom Lord (Advantages are taken, not handed out)
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To: shoffma1999
Males will certainly compete and hash out who the alpha male is, but once the pecking order is determined they generally do what is best for the team. Whereas it appears to me that women continually undermine each other.

The other thing is women will sublimate conflict and make it passive-aggressive and then kid themselves that somehow they're "cooperating better"...men will openly hash out a disagreement, but not take it as seriously and a day latter it's forgotten; women will pretend to be best buddies but you talk to each one privately and they'll be seething with hatred for the other, but they'll never let it get out in the open, and it will simmer and undermine things for months.

20 posted on 05/24/2005 1:03:35 PM PDT by Strategerist
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To: shoffma1999

I have seen that phenomena but I've also seen situations in which women cooperate together. It's hard for me to say personally as I am an extremely non-competitive person so that undoubtedly affects what I observe in this sphere. Or maybe I just get along well with other women....


21 posted on 05/24/2005 1:03:46 PM PDT by blueblazes
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To: blueblazes
I've also seen situations in which women cooperate together.

Ya, on shoe shopping trips, and outings to the outlets.

22 posted on 05/24/2005 1:04:45 PM PDT by Phantom Lord (Advantages are taken, not handed out)
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To: shoffma1999
I don't know if you have ever been involved in a team atmosphere with a bunch of women but it seems to me they are generally much less cooperative, and more backstabing then men. Males will certainly compete and hash out who the alpha male is, but once the pecking order is determined they generally do what is best for the team. Whereas it appears to me that women continually undermine each other

my findings as well.
23 posted on 05/24/2005 1:04:57 PM PDT by stompk
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To: Phantom Lord

I happen to pride myself on my driving, though I do sense that I am in the minority of females in that.

I am very non-competative face to face, but put me in a car and I'm a total guy.


24 posted on 05/24/2005 1:05:02 PM PDT by pa mom
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To: oblomov

Can't pay your bills with psychic income and for a long time most doctors were men. I think being a doctor frequently has more to do with abstract things such as reading results and making diagnoses rather than patient care. The actual patient care, provided by nurses, orderlies, etc, pays much less, although personally I think it might be of greater value to the patient.


25 posted on 05/24/2005 1:05:39 PM PDT by blueblazes
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To: neverdem

26 posted on 05/24/2005 1:06:10 PM PDT by FreedomFarmer (Socialism is not an ideology, it is a disease. Eliminate the vectors.)
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To: neverdem

Interesting!


27 posted on 05/24/2005 1:06:24 PM PDT by lilylangtree (Veni, Vidi, Vici)
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To: Phantom Lord

"And women don't manipulate things? Your kidding right?"

You do understand the difference between "things" as in inanimate objects, and "people" don't you? Women are better at manipulating people while men are better at manipulating things.


28 posted on 05/24/2005 1:06:25 PM PDT by monday
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To: neverdem

". . .and the really good women passed up a lot of money by not entering tournaments they would have won."

Oh, I see the problem. This wasn't written by a writer.
It was written by a fortune teller.


29 posted on 05/24/2005 1:07:04 PM PDT by righttackle44 (The most dangerous weapon in the world is a Marine with his rifle and the American people behind him)
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To: neverdem

I know what women want. Sorry ladies, I'm happily married.


30 posted on 05/24/2005 1:07:24 PM PDT by exile (Exile - Helen Thomas tried to lure me into her Gingerbread House.)
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To: 1L
I disagree. Women can be the most uncooperative, especially when they don't feel they've been emotionally rewarded. As you said, there are always exceptions.

we had to watch a "gender sensitive" training video once. they actually taught that women tend to work "pro-quo".

it was a "you never say hi to me, why should I do this for you" and "I've helped you twice as often as you've helped me, so I'm moving slowwwwly" kind of deal. very interesting video.
31 posted on 05/24/2005 1:07:39 PM PDT by stompk
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To: TheBigB
What Women Want
Chocolate. Next question?

For me --- SEX... but then I've always been a little different, just ask mr. coder2

32 posted on 05/24/2005 1:08:55 PM PDT by coder2
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To: Phantom Lord

I think there was a lot of truth to what Summers was saying. I think he was basically right in his suppositions of why there are so much fewer women in engineering. Most women aren't interested in engineering -we're not wired that way. It's biological. However, I think Summers also had a greater problem as he apparently did not treat the women he did have under his authority fairly or equally. Women who do enter these fields and show competence should be treated the same as men (as competent men should be treated equally in female dominated fields). Summers was using his ideas about biology as an excuse not to treat the women in his dept fairly. At least that is my understanding and based on my long experience of academia - probably fairly accurate.


33 posted on 05/24/2005 1:10:07 PM PDT by blueblazes
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To: blueblazes

"The actual patient care, provided by nurses, orderlies, etc, pays much less, although personally I think it might be of greater value to the patient."

It's supply and demand. If it were as easy to train to be a doctor as to be a nurse, there would be just as many doctors as nurses and being one wouldn't pay any better than being a nurse.


34 posted on 05/24/2005 1:10:10 PM PDT by monday
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To: neverdem

35 posted on 05/24/2005 1:10:24 PM PDT by FreedomFarmer (Socialism is not an ideology, it is a disease. Eliminate the vectors.)
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To: neverdem
What Women Want:

All of the closet space for way too many shoes and purses. This is not speculation on my part.

36 posted on 05/24/2005 1:10:43 PM PDT by No Blue States
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To: neverdem
[ What Women Want ]

You mean Oprahs Harpocrites or other kinds of women..

37 posted on 05/24/2005 1:10:44 PM PDT by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: shoffma1999
Another observation: despite their having excellent skills as observation and intuition, women seem to lack risk-taking skills. In a competitive environment, the one who takes a risk often beats the competition. On "Who Wants to be a Millionaire," women are hesitant at making snap decisions and will tend to be more cautious. Men are often better at "trusting their gut" and acting on a hunch.
38 posted on 05/24/2005 1:11:46 PM PDT by gregwest
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To: FreedomFarmer

lol! Women want full service gas stations?


39 posted on 05/24/2005 1:11:56 PM PDT by No Blue States
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To: FreedomFarmer
$1.51 a gallon !!!

Tell me where !!! LOL

40 posted on 05/24/2005 1:11:58 PM PDT by coder2
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To: neverdem
Women want.......... Mel Gibson! ;-)

What Women Want


41 posted on 05/24/2005 1:12:10 PM PDT by NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
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To: neverdem
Just give me a pair of heels that feel like clouds and it'a all I want.


42 posted on 05/24/2005 1:12:23 PM PDT by Hillary's Lovely Legs (If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance.)
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To: Phantom Lord

I have to disagree - I think much of it is biologically based. Women bear and raise children and I think are more drawn to fields that involve people (caring for them, nurturing, education, etc) then men. I think this is demonstrable even over the past few decades when concerted efforts have been made, starting from childhood onwards to change this preference. These efforts haven't succeeded from what I can see. I would say that the cultural and historical trends evolved from and reinforced the innate biological ones.


43 posted on 05/24/2005 1:12:41 PM PDT by blueblazes
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To: NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
Women want.......... Mel Gibson! ;-)

OK, I want to change my answer to this one !!!

44 posted on 05/24/2005 1:13:12 PM PDT by coder2
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To: shoffma1999

Yea, after my recent Divorce and working with a variiety of women on the job, I can tell you women love cooperation.

As long as you cooperate on THEIR terms, things are just fine.


45 posted on 05/24/2005 1:13:30 PM PDT by 5Madman2 (DemocRATS are Vermin)
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To: stompk

I have found what you observed to be absolutely true. Many women base their working relationships and performances EXACTLY on the kinds of things that you saw in the video. I see it every day right here in my own office. Men think of it as petty, however these are the things that matter to women - the "personal" touch. Men tend to be more impersonal.


46 posted on 05/24/2005 1:15:00 PM PDT by blueblazes
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To: blueblazes

A good beside manner is a bonus, but if I had to choose, I'd pick a correct diagnosis!


47 posted on 05/24/2005 1:16:13 PM PDT by clarissaexplainsitall (stewed tomatoes are just plain gross)
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
Just give me a pair of heels that feel like clouds and it'a all I want.

Image hosted by Photobucket.com

48 posted on 05/24/2005 1:16:18 PM PDT by No Blue States
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To: coder2; TheBigB

Obviously they want choclate covered Dinsdale.


49 posted on 05/24/2005 1:16:22 PM PDT by Dinsdale
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To: Strategerist

sexual dimorphism led to so great a difference in physical strenght that men specialized in going for the kill and women specialized in going for the [deleted]


50 posted on 05/24/2005 1:16:32 PM PDT by King Prout (blast and char it among fetid buzzard guts!)
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