US losing to India in Science

Indian Express ^ | 10 july 2005 | Retuers

[From many - one.]

Then don't complain when Chindia, England, Japan, Germany and Israel are running the science and engineering show.

[Jabba the Nutt]

I remember when we were falling behind the commies, because they graduated 10 times the engineers we did and twice the doctors. There's more to successful research than numbers. You need freedom, you need a culture that encourages creativity and risk-taking and a culture of second and third chances. No one matches the US of A for all of the above.

[A. Pole]

The only thing discouraging US students from entering these fields is that it is hard,

This is not true. I know some high school students who love technology and are bright but are afraid of going into debt, wasting four years and not having the good career prospects. They are going to study safer fields (which they do not like).

[frankenMonkey]

Anybody majoring in Engineering at this time is in for a rude shock upon graduation. I wouldn't recommend it.

what would you recommend? massage college? I hire computer engineers regularly, and starting salaries are $55K-$65K. I can't find enough PhDs at $150K and up. My last two hires are foreign nationals.

[Lessismore]

One way to remedy this situation would be to teach the sciences in proper order: first physics, then chemistry, then biology.

That would be the proper order. But math education is so pitiful that you can't teach physics first.

[Brilliant]

All very true.... And one major aspect of it is the fact that in the US, we limit the number of medical school admissions in order to reduce the number of doctors. Then because we don't have enough doctors, we import doctors from India, where they don't have such stupid policies.

[RFEngineer]

"I know some high school students who love technology and are bright but are afraid of going into debt, wasting four years and not having the good career prospects. They are going to study safer fields (which they do not like)."

What "safer fields" are they selecting? These poor kids have gotten bum advice. I wonder where they got it?

[G Larry]

Check your local High School's course list:
Art of many flavors,
20 foreign languages,
Psychology and Sports Medicine,
Crafts of many flavors,
Cultural sensitivities galore,

Why do you think 4.0 GPAs are a dime a dozen, compared to 35 years ago?
Wouldn't want to ask Johnny or Sally to risk learning something useful by taking a challenging course.
Then after forming this foundation of sand in High school, they go off to college where Mommy & Daddy pay for a diploma that has little chance of leading to a career.
(supplemented by "scholarships" awarded for great performance in meaningless courses.)
Don't waste your time telling me how beneficial these courses are. They are NOT part of the foundation of a solid education, which IS the responsibility of High school.
Leave the specializing and the fluff for college electives.

[A. Pole]

What "safer fields" are they selecting? These poor kids have gotten bum advice.

Law, finances.

[RFEngineer]

"An engineer needs to spend his 30's preparing to start his own business"

I agree. Like many fields, an engineer in his 40's cannot compete with the younger, sharper minds of engineers in their 20's. That doesn't mean they are unemployable, it means that they take their experience and perspective and evolve.....starting your own business is definitely one of those options.

Of course, the days of lifetime employment are over for everyone, not just engineers, one should be prepared for change no matter what your age.

Those who came to this realization a little late are quite apparent on these threads.

[RFEngineer]

"Law, finances."

Do you know how valuable someone is with an undergraduate engineering degree with a law degree on top?

In these days of global competition in science and technology, that is the ticket to riches beyond their wildest dreams........

Of course CPA's and Lawyers more often toil in obscurity and drudgery with middle-incomes than they do not...... Some people are ok with that.

[A. Pole]

I agree. Like many fields, an engineer in his 40's cannot compete with the younger, sharper minds of engineers in their 20's.

It is stupid to invest money, effort and time into profession which is good only when you are in your 20's. Much better to be a lawyer, doctor, teacher etc - in these fields you can be making career your whole life.

starting your own business is definitely one of those options.

People who are good material for engineers often are not good for businessmen or salesmen. And you do not need to finish college or to be expert in technology field to be successful in business. Don't we know some famous examples for that? :)

[A. Pole]

Do you know how valuable someone is with an undergraduate engineering degree with a law degree on top? In these days of global competition in science and technology, that is the ticket to riches beyond their wildest dreams........

It might be so now. But when the most of manufacturing base and technology relocates to China/India, US engineers with law degree will be much less in demand, similar to Argentinian engineers with Argentinian law degree.

[nairBResal]

"an engineer in his 40's cannot compete with the younger, sharper minds of engineers in their 20's"

You don't know anything about the profession.

[lucysmom]

You need freedom, you need a culture that encourages creativity and risk-taking and a culture of second and third chances.

Somewhere I read recently that "capital is a coward", it wants to minimize risk while maximizing profits. Think about how that might encourage mediocrity.

[From many - one.]

Mechanics on an intuitive level (see my post #9)

kinetics with marbles on a track

wave motion with a super size slinky

etc.

I've got three grand kids under 8. Girls.

There's all kinds of physics you can teach them before they've got much math.

[A. Pole]

To: RFEngineer "You don't know anything about the profession."

I found the picture of RFEngineer (guy on the left):

[lucysmom]

Law, finances.

My very bright daughter just switched her major from marine biology, that she loves, to accounting.

She is the hardest working person I know and always has been. Her couch in middle school used her as an example of what it was possible to accomplish with no talent but hard work and determination (I had mixed feelings about that).

[kezekiel]

With just 5 per cent of the world's population, it employs almost a third of science and engineering researchers, accounts for 40 per cent of research and development spending and publishes 35 per cent of science and engineering research papers.

Remember that the next time you hear, "The U.S. consumes 25% of the world's energy resources even though it only has 5% of the world's populaaaaaatioooon" (whiny emphasis mine). Also remember that for that 25% consumption of the world's energy resources, we produce... about 25% of the world's economic output.

[kezekiel]

They also won't allow their students to be taught nonsensical crap like Creationism.

You'll get a lot more rigorous readin' ritin' and rithmetic at a Christian school than you will at one of our dumbed-down, PC, moral-equivalency public skools, and the Christian schools will actually teach the value of Western civilization. You'd be better off sending your kids to Christian school and teaching them evolution on the side than you would sending your kid to your local liberal reeducation camps.