Posted on 12/26/2005 11:04:49 AM PST by Coleus
BTW...........clicked on your name and was brought to your site. I see you are a master on all things. Never seen anyone an expert on so many different subjects. Since you have made so many assumptions, I'll also make one about you: typical know it all hiding behind your religious beliefs.
Before I get jumped on, I proclaim my Christianity......but, without the know it all attitude this guy has.
And you know what? I'm sorry you started it. ALL babies are miracles, be they natural, adopted, helped with fertility drugs or IVF. When I pass from this world, I'll be able to tell the Lord that I raised my children in His image.
Judge not, bub.
It won't be outlawed; it's snowballing to the point where eventually science will be able to nearly mimic the resurrection right here on earth. I agree with you in theory, but like an illegitimate child, once it or they are here are just as much God's creation as any other child, should be treated as such, and who could wish them begone?
Many fertilized eggs are rejected by the womb sometimes before one "takes", naturally, however you want to think of it. Those no one is responsible for. Some say they would have been defective. I doubt that is true 100% of the time. It just happens for whatever reason things happen.
Stem cell research is now so disturbing to me. Earlier in my life, I wouldn't have thought much about it because I bought into the propaganda of the enlightened ones, whether they be authors, media, victims, whatever. Babies in deep freezes don't feel anything, but none of us sentient humans would like to be kept on ice indefinitely. They might possess souls that are very cold in a spiritual sense because they are not loved or wanted except for a utilitarian purpose. It all gets so complex.
Sad thing is, this man is not the happy father of twins, he's the happy father of 10 pairs of twins. And one of these days his twins at home will realize where their siblings are. That's pretty ugly too.
I can't find it in my heart to judge the parents of the twins. That is for God to do.
Some people never delve that deeply into anything to understand the full ramifications of any given act. I once had an IUD. I understood how it was supposed to work, but it failed to register at a deep level because I thought superficially, and it was the current vogue. I have since repented of that period of my life, and hope God has forgiven me.
What haunts me more than that was shortly after I became catholic, I had one of those semi-repressed memories that hit me upside the head. In my college days I was about a week late (I was regular as clockwork), my friend had told me that if you run up and down the stairs a lot of times and strenuously exercise, you will get your period. Horrified of an "unwanted" pregnancy, I got it, and it was the most painful one ever, passed large clots. I will never know if I induced a miscarriage or not. Most people would say not to worry about it. Once that came into my consciousness, I asked God to forgive me, still not really knowing if I had actually been pregnant or not. I said nothing to anyone but confessed it as a sin to a priest (he didn't seem to take it too seriously, maybe he thought I was being goofy). To me, it was my INTENTION that was the crux of the matter.
Shortly thereafter, each of my children over a period of weeks told me about how they had seen their older "brother". I believe it was my older daughter who saw "my older brother" in a red car at a grocery store that is no longer in business. I can't remember how my other daughter saw "him" (it was in a dream and he had dark hair like her). My son saw him in a dream with a young man who once lived next door to us at another house before we lived in the one where he was conceived, but who was killed through his own willful carelessness in speeding into a telephone pole. I saw "him" walking down a street toward the home I was living in at the time when I was away at school. Of course, I understand that these "manifestations" were not literal in the sense that "he' actually had a car wherever "he" is, "he" may not have actually met the young man killed in the accident wherever they are now. But at a very deep level, something happened to my entire family over it, and, to some extent, it had a healing effect.
Ironically the young man who was killed, I said two weeks before when he roared around the neighborhood that he was going to kill himself if he didn't quit driving like that. It also happened that he had dated a girl next door, and he came into my house late one night when the kids were still up and stabbed the next boyfriend of hers who now liked my daughter and was in the house. My son had been sleeping and jumped out of bed in between the two. The one who had been stabbed hid from the police and was ok. So that may have had something to do with the way my son dreamed it.
Or it could all be just silly dreams and fantasies.
It is painful and even crazy to share such things. My three children who share the same father are very close. It's like there is a spiritual or psychic bond in some families, especially among siblings. Sometimes they sense something is amiss in their family no matter how nice things are outwardly.
If I knew then what I now know, I would do so many things differently in my life, one of which would be to accept my infertility and try to find meaning in my life in other ways. The least little action can have eternal consequences.
I still wish the man happiness in this life, and if mistakes have been made along the way, may God have mercy on us all. I hope I don't regret sharing this. Like me, most peoples' minds are pretty closed, but you never know it could wake somebody up.
ALL babies are miracles, be they natural, adopted, helped with fertility drugs or IVF. >>>
You keep forgetting about the discarded babies from the barbaric IVF procedure, the ones on Ice, the ones being used for embryonic stem cell research and the ones not implanting on the uterus and "passed" into the toilet.
It's all explained here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1178497/posts
God bless you and your family. I myself am adopted and I have two natural children. I know some of what you went through. I had a minor fertility problem that was correctable. My husband and I were fortunate; others are not. I'm glad things worked out for you.
You know what Mr. 700 Club? I just laid my babies down to sleep, and that sure as sh** felt moral. Oh, btw they are baptized. You care to comment on my wifes FIVE miscarriages before my miracles came into our lives?
You have no idea of what you speak with regards to me...........none of ours were "thrown away", pr***.
I can't believe my first substantive discussion on FR after a year of lurking is dealing with a close minded Jimmy Swaggart like you.
You have no idea of what you speak with regards to me...........none of ours were "thrown away", pr***. >>
I have yet to see this done, please provide the medical information. You could say anything about the 700 Club or
Jimmy Swaggart it still doesn't make the IVF procedure right or moral.
More info. can be found here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1178497/posts
Temptation, get thee behind me ;)
Every embryo should be treated as a child, a human being, and as long as that is the case, there should be no moral objection other than "it's not made in the bed." Even strict Orthodox Jews find that IVF, used morally, is holier than not bearing any children.
It is a good thing to go forth and multiply. Fertility sometimes needs a little help.
That is what I tried to tell the guy, but needless to say he won't listen.........probably due to the fact that he has his mind made up already. All of our embryos were put into my wife, resulting in my children.
Of course according to him that is "barbaric".
Congratulations!!! You can't look at your babies and say they were against G-d or nature!! NO WAY. Enjoy them.
Thousands of Children are being created, killed, discarded, etc., daily, it's so barbaric. How could any human or parent "discard" or "dispose" of their children in this fashion? IVF is abortion, plain and simple, it's a grave sin in some religions and forbidden. I suggest you read this thread.
More info. can be found here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1178497/posts
It is a good thing to go forth and multiply. >>
through the conjugal act in the sacrament of marriage, Yes.
through the immoral, sinful and barbaric use of IVF creating 24 lives, implanting them, discarding them, freezing them for the one or 2 who are lucky to live is very wrong and NOT part of God's plan or God's Natural Law.
When you say that most embryos end up in the sanitary pads of women, you are absolutely correct. For a couple in their 20s working hard to conceive (LOL), this means that they are absolutely within normal fertility if it takes them a full year to conceive their first baby. Egg might meet sperm every month. Yet most of the time, that embryo doesn't have what it takes. This is the truth. We are coming to learn that many imperfect embryos don't continue to divide.
Rather than feeling that embryos that do not "take" once placed in the uterus are "wasted," it might be better to view it the way I do: we are not like the lowly animals, who can easily produce hundreds of eggs and make millions of identical babies. Humans are very special, created in G-d's image, and that is why it is HARD to make us. Everything has to be right.
If IVF is abortion, then so is a woman and man having sex. Only a small %age of sperm-and-egg meetings result in a child.
What about miscarriages? Would you say that the miscarriages I suffered, along with copious tears and truly broken heart, were ABORTIONS? How cruel can you be?
Please remember that I am with you about embryo abuse, in stem cell research and other horrible things. But IVF, when each embryo is placed in a loving Mom's uterus, is a GOOD thing. Actually, it's better than the two teens in a parked car. Not that their child isn't also wanted by G-d.
The problem is that many couples with frozen embryos would prefer to see them destroyed rather than to donate them so another family can parent "their" babies. Sad, but true.
Sperm too are cast aside by the millions by an act of sexual activity.
you are not making sense, go back and read my other posts to you and others.
more info. can be found here
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1178497/posts
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